After one practice this recruits PE potential changed from black to yellow and he is a redshirt. This really changes if I would’ve recruited him or not. The rating stayed at 45, just the color changed.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/RatingsHistory.aspx?tid=5493&pid=4348504

This happens often. Even though we see ratings as whole numbers they have decimal points we cannot see. Let’s say his PER was 70.0 and black-black means anywhere from 7-20 points of improvement (or something close to that). He improved decimal points after his first practice, say, to 70.8), which means he now has less than 7 total points of growth left and thus the color change to yellow.

Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that, although a rating has a listed number, the rating contains decimal places that we are unable to see. On top of that, although normal potential is between 8-19, those numbers too have decimals (i.e. a player may have black potential with 11.4 points of potential improvement).

In short, your player had roughly a 45 PER with a true max potential at roughly 53. In long, think of it as his potential just crossed from 7.5 to 7.4 and has rounded down to the yellow subcategory. He still has the same max potential as when you recruited him.

In recruiting that player, you took a bet that didn't play out in your favor this time. You were hoping for close to 19, but you ended up getting about the lowest 8 possible. Unfortunately, if you can't handle the ~8 point improvement, that's probably not a player to go for as that is part of the risk.

i think the answer about the current/max ratings is a good one.

on a different note, im curious, why does his potential in per matter so much to you? starting at 45, hes looking at 52-65 - in that range, hes a pure 2 point shooter with no 3 point scoring potential, and the 2pt% improvement over the range seems rather marginal to me. if it was d3 i could see you hoping for some 3 point scoring, but at villanova?

I think my biggest pet peeve with this is when you recruit green colored ratings(highest potential) and the green goes to blue after the first game. It's not a huge deal for someone that's in the high 60s/low 70s, because they can only end up getting to 100 anyway, but recruiting a 25-35 PE player in green(decent to high WE), you're kind of hoping you've found a diamond in the rough and have him become an elite outside shooter by his senior season.

Just as a side note, when you're recruiting, a lot of those green ratings in athleticism and speed turn blue fairly quickly.

Posted by thewizard17 on 9/30/2019 2:46:00 PM (view original):
I think my biggest pet peeve with this is when you recruit green colored ratings(highest potential) and the green goes to blue after the first game. It's not a huge deal for someone that's in the high 60s/low 70s, because they can only end up getting to 100 anyway, but recruiting a 25-35 PE player in green(decent to high WE), you're kind of hoping you've found a diamond in the rough and have him become an elite outside shooter by his senior season.

Just as a side note, when you're recruiting, a lot of those green ratings in athleticism and speed turn blue fairly quickly.

i agree with the annoyance, but i like its impact on the game - taking a risk on a very high potential player is just that, and it complicates team building efforts, which is (and should be IMO) both the most important and one of the most challenging aspects of the game.

the thing i can't stand is how low is split into two categories for 7 points while medium is 14 with 1 category. the original spec called for 3 sub-categories per category, but i don't think they could figure out how to make language for the evals clearly support 9 different evals (the old way of getting the sub-category, for new folks). i sort of feel like seble should have fixed this one; this has been a substantial complaint since like, before seble took over. setting aside the annoyance of them telling us there are 9 categories very explicitly, and then giving us 5 without a peep, it makes no sense to me to have this massive range for medium where that is precisely where so many key ratings fall and the range where i'd pick to have a subdivision if i only got 1. high being 21+ being split is nice, low is half useless, but medium is where it really counts. yet its the only one without subdivision. uhg!

Posted by vegaskevin on 9/30/2019 8:51:00 AM (view original):
After one practice this recruits PE potential changed from black to yellow and he is a redshirt. This really changes if I would’ve recruited him or not. The rating stayed at 45, just the color changed.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/RatingsHistory.aspx?tid=5493&pid=4348504

Its like the opposite of Xmas

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/30/2019 1:55:00 PM (view original):
i think the answer about the current/max ratings is a good one.

on a different note, im curious, why does his potential in per matter so much to you? starting at 45, hes looking at 52-65 - in that range, hes a pure 2 point shooter with no 3 point scoring potential, and the 2pt% improvement over the range seems rather marginal to me. if it was d3 i could see you hoping for some 3 point scoring, but at villanova?

Let's say this costs the player 5-8 PE. How many baskets could that be over a season? Let's say 8 baskets, or 16 points. I seem to lose at least 5 games a season by 1 or 2 points, so it does matter.

Posted by mullycj on 9/30/2019 6:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vegaskevin on 9/30/2019 8:51:00 AM (view original):
After one practice this recruits PE potential changed from black to yellow and he is a redshirt. This really changes if I would’ve recruited him or not. The rating stayed at 45, just the color changed.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/RatingsHistory.aspx?tid=5493&pid=4348504

Its like the opposite of Xmas

I felt this deep in my bones.

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/30/2019 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by thewizard17 on 9/30/2019 2:46:00 PM (view original):
I think my biggest pet peeve with this is when you recruit green colored ratings(highest potential) and the green goes to blue after the first game. It's not a huge deal for someone that's in the high 60s/low 70s, because they can only end up getting to 100 anyway, but recruiting a 25-35 PE player in green(decent to high WE), you're kind of hoping you've found a diamond in the rough and have him become an elite outside shooter by his senior season.

Just as a side note, when you're recruiting, a lot of those green ratings in athleticism and speed turn blue fairly quickly.

i agree with the annoyance, but i like its impact on the game - taking a risk on a very high potential player is just that, and it complicates team building efforts, which is (and should be IMO) both the most important and one of the most challenging aspects of the game.

the thing i can't stand is how low is split into two categories for 7 points while medium is 14 with 1 category. the original spec called for 3 sub-categories per category, but i don't think they could figure out how to make language for the evals clearly support 9 different evals (the old way of getting the sub-category, for new folks). i sort of feel like seble should have fixed this one; this has been a substantial complaint since like, before seble took over. setting aside the annoyance of them telling us there are 9 categories very explicitly, and then giving us 5 without a peep, it makes no sense to me to have this massive range for medium where that is precisely where so many key ratings fall and the range where i'd pick to have a subdivision if i only got 1. high being 21+ being split is nice, low is half useless, but medium is where it really counts. yet its the only one without subdivision. uhg!

You don’t think that’s intentional? I think it’s intentional, and designed for the same purpose you name in the first paragraph. Complicating team building efforts.

A black 70 in a key attribute could be borderline elite, and borderline useless at D1. I recruited a PG at Kansas with 7 green attributes, but it’s the black 66 in passing that has me sweating.

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/30/2019 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by thewizard17 on 9/30/2019 2:46:00 PM (view original):
I think my biggest pet peeve with this is when you recruit green colored ratings(highest potential) and the green goes to blue after the first game. It's not a huge deal for someone that's in the high 60s/low 70s, because they can only end up getting to 100 anyway, but recruiting a 25-35 PE player in green(decent to high WE), you're kind of hoping you've found a diamond in the rough and have him become an elite outside shooter by his senior season.

Just as a side note, when you're recruiting, a lot of those green ratings in athleticism and speed turn blue fairly quickly.

i agree with the annoyance, but i like its impact on the game - taking a risk on a very high potential player is just that, and it complicates team building efforts, which is (and should be IMO) both the most important and one of the most challenging aspects of the game.

the thing i can't stand is how low is split into two categories for 7 points while medium is 14 with 1 category. the original spec called for 3 sub-categories per category, but i don't think they could figure out how to make language for the evals clearly support 9 different evals (the old way of getting the sub-category, for new folks). i sort of feel like seble should have fixed this one; this has been a substantial complaint since like, before seble took over. setting aside the annoyance of them telling us there are 9 categories very explicitly, and then giving us 5 without a peep, it makes no sense to me to have this massive range for medium where that is precisely where so many key ratings fall and the range where i'd pick to have a subdivision if i only got 1. high being 21+ being split is nice, low is half useless, but medium is where it really counts. yet its the only one without subdivision. uhg!

I can't complain about it, I'm ok with it being part of the game, but sometimes it sucks. You recruit a 50 Ath/50 Spd with green potential at a D-1 school in hopes you can have 90s in Ath/Spd to help with your fullcourt press, only to find out the next practice they won't even hit 80.

That part doesn't make a lot of sense, you have 2 categories for up to 7 points, but no split categories for 7 to 20 and then nothing after 28. And I understand nobody knows exactly where someone's potential will land, but they probably could balance it to where up to 7 would be red, 8 to 14 would be yellow, 15 to 21 would be black, 22 to 28 would be blue and 29 and up would be green.

Posted by mullycj on 9/30/2019 6:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vegaskevin on 9/30/2019 8:51:00 AM (view original):
After one practice this recruits PE potential changed from black to yellow and he is a redshirt. This really changes if I would’ve recruited him or not. The rating stayed at 45, just the color changed.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/RatingsHistory.aspx?tid=5493&pid=4348504

Its like the opposite of Xmas

Truer words have never been written on this site.

Posted by vegaskevin on 9/30/2019 9:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/30/2019 1:55:00 PM (view original):
i think the answer about the current/max ratings is a good one.

on a different note, im curious, why does his potential in per matter so much to you? starting at 45, hes looking at 52-65 - in that range, hes a pure 2 point shooter with no 3 point scoring potential, and the 2pt% improvement over the range seems rather marginal to me. if it was d3 i could see you hoping for some 3 point scoring, but at villanova?

Let's say this costs the player 5-8 PE. How many baskets could that be over a season? Let's say 8 baskets, or 16 points. I seem to lose at least 5 games a season by 1 or 2 points, so it does matter.

i'm guessing the impact is in the 1% fg range, and the player is a mid level scorer or lower, as an upperclassmen. so probably in the 200 fg/season or less range, so i would peg it closer to 2 baskets over the season, or roughly 0.1 points per game or lower if hes a low end scorer (which is certainly preferable).

i would definitely not say that doesn't matter, or that 0.1 points per game is insignificant - however, a 1% increase in scoring efficiency on a low to mid level scorer, that's like a very slight change relative to the value of the player overall and especially relative to the team. that shouldn't really ever make or break a player for you. seems very marginal to me, if you were on the fence before, you may have one more toe over - but its nothoing like a guy who was 77 med per and landed 84 instead of hopefully low 90s and as a result their 3pt % tanks and literally the entire composition of your offense is at stake. i run into those super high value ratings, greens and blacks in particular, where it totally makes or breaks a player - and then, i get pretty annoyed when a few break against me in the same class. but this is a mild example of getting screwed on potential, you'll run into players fairly regularly where their potential breaking against you would be 10x more painful than this - so i guess, just prepare yourself :)

Posted by shoe3 on 9/30/2019 9:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/30/2019 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by thewizard17 on 9/30/2019 2:46:00 PM (view original):
I think my biggest pet peeve with this is when you recruit green colored ratings(highest potential) and the green goes to blue after the first game. It's not a huge deal for someone that's in the high 60s/low 70s, because they can only end up getting to 100 anyway, but recruiting a 25-35 PE player in green(decent to high WE), you're kind of hoping you've found a diamond in the rough and have him become an elite outside shooter by his senior season.

Just as a side note, when you're recruiting, a lot of those green ratings in athleticism and speed turn blue fairly quickly.

i agree with the annoyance, but i like its impact on the game - taking a risk on a very high potential player is just that, and it complicates team building efforts, which is (and should be IMO) both the most important and one of the most challenging aspects of the game.

the thing i can't stand is how low is split into two categories for 7 points while medium is 14 with 1 category. the original spec called for 3 sub-categories per category, but i don't think they could figure out how to make language for the evals clearly support 9 different evals (the old way of getting the sub-category, for new folks). i sort of feel like seble should have fixed this one; this has been a substantial complaint since like, before seble took over. setting aside the annoyance of them telling us there are 9 categories very explicitly, and then giving us 5 without a peep, it makes no sense to me to have this massive range for medium where that is precisely where so many key ratings fall and the range where i'd pick to have a subdivision if i only got 1. high being 21+ being split is nice, low is half useless, but medium is where it really counts. yet its the only one without subdivision. uhg!

You don’t think that’s intentional? I think it’s intentional, and designed for the same purpose you name in the first paragraph. Complicating team building efforts.

A black 70 in a key attribute could be borderline elite, and borderline useless at D1. I recruited a PG at Kansas with 7 green attributes, but it’s the black 66 in passing that has me sweating.

hmm, i recall seble's explanation of why it was done that way (which wasn't done by him) was something along the lines of, we didn't know how to get the wording right, so we punted. so maybe intentional, but not really - the design was for 9 categories, they just gave up when it got hard.

i suggested they ditch the stupid wording, because all it did was force people to archive the forum thread which documented every phrase and its meeting, unless you didn't read the forums in which case you were kind of screwed. seble mostly agreed on principle but didn't do anything, and back then he said they didn't want to just have the assistant coach be like per: low high spd: low medium etc. - the messaging back from the assistant needed to be realistic or something, i guess.

i do think seble ultimately agreed with that part of it, because he went ahead and made the high low and low low stuff visible directly on the recruit, without the guesswork. i don't know if he thought about changing the categories, but i think he was trying to do more of a face lift, than to dive into the engine and start mucking with stuff. so i guess i would say no, i don't think it was an intentional design choice up front - almost positive it wasn't - but maybe he re-considered for 3.0 and decided he liked it as it is and left it that way. so maybe?

Posted by gillispie1 on 10/1/2019 3:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 9/30/2019 9:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/30/2019 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by thewizard17 on 9/30/2019 2:46:00 PM (view original):
I think my biggest pet peeve with this is when you recruit green colored ratings(highest potential) and the green goes to blue after the first game. It's not a huge deal for someone that's in the high 60s/low 70s, because they can only end up getting to 100 anyway, but recruiting a 25-35 PE player in green(decent to high WE), you're kind of hoping you've found a diamond in the rough and have him become an elite outside shooter by his senior season.

Just as a side note, when you're recruiting, a lot of those green ratings in athleticism and speed turn blue fairly quickly.

i agree with the annoyance, but i like its impact on the game - taking a risk on a very high potential player is just that, and it complicates team building efforts, which is (and should be IMO) both the most important and one of the most challenging aspects of the game.

the thing i can't stand is how low is split into two categories for 7 points while medium is 14 with 1 category. the original spec called for 3 sub-categories per category, but i don't think they could figure out how to make language for the evals clearly support 9 different evals (the old way of getting the sub-category, for new folks). i sort of feel like seble should have fixed this one; this has been a substantial complaint since like, before seble took over. setting aside the annoyance of them telling us there are 9 categories very explicitly, and then giving us 5 without a peep, it makes no sense to me to have this massive range for medium where that is precisely where so many key ratings fall and the range where i'd pick to have a subdivision if i only got 1. high being 21+ being split is nice, low is half useless, but medium is where it really counts. yet its the only one without subdivision. uhg!

You don’t think that’s intentional? I think it’s intentional, and designed for the same purpose you name in the first paragraph. Complicating team building efforts.

A black 70 in a key attribute could be borderline elite, and borderline useless at D1. I recruited a PG at Kansas with 7 green attributes, but it’s the black 66 in passing that has me sweating.

hmm, i recall seble's explanation of why it was done that way (which wasn't done by him) was something along the lines of, we didn't know how to get the wording right, so we punted. so maybe intentional, but not really - the design was for 9 categories, they just gave up when it got hard.

i suggested they ditch the stupid wording, because all it did was force people to archive the forum thread which documented every phrase and its meeting, unless you didn't read the forums in which case you were kind of screwed. seble mostly agreed on principle but didn't do anything, and back then he said they didn't want to just have the assistant coach be like per: low high spd: low medium etc. - the messaging back from the assistant needed to be realistic or something, i guess.

i do think seble ultimately agreed with that part of it, because he went ahead and made the high low and low low stuff visible directly on the recruit, without the guesswork. i don't know if he thought about changing the categories, but i think he was trying to do more of a face lift, than to dive into the engine and start mucking with stuff. so i guess i would say no, i don't think it was an intentional design choice up front - almost positive it wasn't - but maybe he re-considered for 3.0 and decided he liked it as it is and left it that way. so maybe?

I don’t doubt that’s the answer you got. I do doubt that they gave you the real answer. It wasn’t “too hard” to come up with 4 more phrases for each attribute (that whole 2..0 “scouting” system was silly and awful, but that’s a different topic, and moot anyway). There are ~170,000 words in the English language, and ~7000 more human languages spoken on earth, if they ran out. The reason those subcategories aren’t all fleshed out and neatly separated is that they didn’t think doing so would add value to the game; I suspect they knew that filling them all out, especially in the middle, would make the recruiting game more predicable, and this would have myriad negative consequences on gameplay.