What are some of the the reasons, or the basis, for you to make a decision to double team a player(s)?

I wanted to ask again while we're all active and friendly and before we get back to pulling hair and name calling. Haha. But I feel like there's sooooo many different reasons that each coach uses to decide on double team options.

Bad passer? Bad ball handler? If you don't do this, which would you believe to be more effective?

Leading scorer? Second leading scorer? (Let Jordan get his, while stopping Pippen). Best bench scorer?

Lowest Stamina? Lowest Ath and/or spd? How about opposing depth issues? (Say a team only has 3 bigs)

These are ALL ideas that have ran thru my head at one point or another, whether I've acted on them or not. Feel free to add any other reason that you may double team to the list. Point out which of these are terrible ideas. I talk with many successful coaches about this and everyone seems to have different opinions.

I hardly double-team because I play a lot of zone. For my occasional press team, I'll DT only when I see some sort of glaringly unequal shooting distribution and then, I often pass up the option. My philosophy has always been to maximize my own team's strengths rather than focus on my opponent's strengths. If I recruited properly, I shouldn't need to DT.

1. You can’t double in press.
2. I double when a team has one or two players who take most of the shots. Generally I am looking for 3 times more likely to shoot.
3. I also double when a team only has one bench player they won’t to shoot.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 10/2/2019 7:56:00 PM (view original):
1. You can’t double in press.
2. I double when a team has one or two players who take most of the shots. Generally I am looking for 3 times more likely to shoot.
3. I also double when a team only has one bench player they won’t to shoot.

lol, I was thinking of M2M but I'll leave my original post unedited. Coffee wore off a long time ago.

IMO double team is a bit of a toothless option that was added to check a box, without real depth behind it. however, i mostly have focused on press so its a bit hard to say for sure.

i think the double team has a small negative impact on a player's shooting and a small positive on the shooting % of the rest of the team. presumably under that model, there's some tipping point where a player is scoring enough that double teams make sense, but that will be situational. the time when i think a double team makes the most sense is when there are 1-2 strong 3 point scorers doing all the 3pt scoring, and you can double them and be safer in running a significant minus.

I prefer to double team “if leading scorer”. I’m more likely to DTILS a perimeter scoring guard when a team is getting most of its points down low, but has a 3 pt threat or 2. Most of my teams are 3-2z/press defenses, so for example, I’m facing a team that only has something like 15% of its FGA from beyond the arc - I might play 3-2/press at -3 or -4, and then double team the guy getting those 3pt attempts, if he’s the leading scorer.

Sometimes I’ll DT a guy “always”, if he’s far and away the leading scorer, ie the only one I’m really worried about hurting me. Then I’ll typically adjust my defensive positioning along with that, if he leans one way or the other, assuming the double will reduce his looks, and his distribution.

I can rarely say I'm experienced with anything in HD, but I can say I'm experienced as a D3 Zone coach who double teams a lot. I am known in Knight SoCal circles as the -5 Zone coach. Let me explain how I view Zone double teaming.

The reason a coach would pick zone as a set likely would be because you can play less players which means redshirting and taking walk-ons and because you can control the game more as a game planner than other sets (M2M is debatable). Because of this, I double team a lot, most games actually. I generally do these three teams with doubling:

1. Double player(s) that shoots an disproportionate amount more than teammates (what has been mentioned) and does not have good passing.
2. Doubling shooter(s) on a team where there are only a few capable shooters and going heavy negative.
3, Doubling low post threat(s) on a team where there are only a few non-shooting scoring threats and going heavy plus.

So far all responses are for shooting percentages basically. Anybody out there that double teams to focus on creating turnovers?

Posted by topdogggbm on 10/3/2019 4:40:00 AM (view original):
So far all responses are for shooting percentages basically. Anybody out there that double teams to focus on creating turnovers?

From what I can tell, they don’t “create turnovers” at least not directly. Indirectly, because a DT does (I think) keep that player’s distribution lower, it might be possible that he’s exposed to more turnovers, if he’s a poor passer. But that’s always true, DT or not. We’d have to know exactly how passing functions in the possession algorithm to say for sure. Lots of folks have working theories on exactly how passing works, but I haven’t seen the developers disclose its function to that detail, so it’s likely to be speculative.

I don't know that I have ever seen double teaming definitively work to create turnovers. I primarily use it like everyone else here when I see a use % that is disproportionately large, or if I have crap defenders in a matchup and need some extra oomph. Circumstantially I think DT does a good job of denying access to the ball rather than creating turnovers, but I don't have any hard data to support that theory.

Posted by topdogggbm on 10/3/2019 4:40:00 AM (view original):
So far all responses are for shooting percentages basically. Anybody out there that double teams to focus on creating turnovers?

Just clarify as FW_K did above, it is not shooting % people double for, but usage %. I personally don't view it as doubling for usage % though, but I more make the most effective "defensive gameplan" I can by using double teaming with defensive +/- and occasionally attacking a certain foul-prone player.

I almost never use the DT. This is anecdotal, I haven't collected data, but I've just never seen it make a real difference. When I have used it, I have done so on guys who aren't very good passers. In reality if you double a great passer you can get torched, but I don't know if HD is sophisticated enough for this to happen.

i agree with a bunch of this - first off, that doubling for turnovers is probably not something that works as one would expect, and likely is not something that exists at all in the sim engine. the whole DT thing is very half baked, it may be as simple as a small fg% penalty and fga penalty (fewer possessions) for the main scorer and a smaller fg% boost for the rest of the team. that said, ive never deeply studied it and don't know anyone who has. you may want to do a targeted study of double teams in the context of your situation, and see what you can uncover.

i also agree its really about usage % not shooting %, i just use that as shorthand - but definitely usage% is the better indicator.

one thing i disagree with fairly strongly (as strongly as one can in the context of a half baked checkbox that barely does anything), is the use of 'if leading scorer'. ill state this strongly and let other folks throw darts at it. ILS would potentially make sense if and only if you are unsure of the strategy of your opponent. however, as wildly changing distros are very rare in this game, the logical conclusion of that statement is that ILS very rarely makes sense, which is my position.

here's why i think ILS is about the worst thing you can. suppose you are targeting the lead scorer on the floor in terms of normal scoring, which is the typical usage. now, your double team is working, the guy is missing shots, and hes not the leader. so what do you do - stop doing the exact thing that is working for you! that makes a lot of sense, right? (not). even more, if you think about feedback, you are getting double ******. suppose the guy is getting screwed by RNG, so he's not leading scorer. now, for the rest of the game, hes going to be getting a fg% boost via the feedback - so its PRECISELY the time you really need to be focusing on him. instead, you abandon the strategy and let him have at it. conversely, suppose RNG is helping him a lot. now hes the leading scorer and feedback is going to wreck him going forward. at this point, its a lot less important to double team him, because you want to let him shoot and get the penalty of all that feedback. instead, you are going to push on with the double team.

so in summary, i think ILS works consistently against your interests, both because when it works, you abandon it, and because of how feedback is part of this game. i'd definitely be interested to hear a counter argument though.

I almost never disagree with Gillispie but I do now, twice.

1. "the time when i think a double team makes the most sense is when there are 1-2 strong 3 point scorers doing all the 3pt scoring, and you can double them and be safer in running a significant minus." I have done this MANY times and it just doesn't work. The penalty for double teamnig is less thean the +/- adjustment. I have tried double teaming a teams one three point shooter and playing a heavy minus and the 3 point shooter almost alway crushes me.

2. 'here's why i think ILS is about the worst thing you can (use)'. While Gil's logic is spot on, it does have situational uses. My favorite use is when you have one substitute who shoots alot and one or two starters who shoot alot. in this case, you probably want to double the bench scorer when it's just him in but not if one of the other two scorers are in (and they are better than him). i pretty frequently ALWAYS a teams scorer and ILS the third guy to make sure if third option overall is the first option on the court, then he has the penalty.

"We’d have to know exactly how passing functions in the possession algorithm to say for sure. Lots of folks have working theories on exactly how passing works, but I haven’t seen the developers disclose its function to that detail, so it’s likely to be speculative."

passing is pretty cut and dry IMO. It does three things:

1. (TEAM) Prevent TO's before the possession
2. (IND) Prevent TO's in the Shot, Foul, TO decision
3. (TEAM) Increase the chance a shot goes in the "Does the shot go in decision"