Then here’s a question for you Sportsbulls, for a post on FB/Press, how many speed points would you trade for an ath point? Would you trade 3 speed for 2 ath? 2 speed for 1 ath? How much is speed worth?

Even if you think speed is as important as ath, which I don’t in a post player, the 90/1 guy becomes a 60/30 guy, which is “average” at D3.

The ideal set for this kind of player is triangle, I think, where speed and BH deficiency hurts least. Doesn’t mean he can’t be solid at D3 FB/press - I think he clearly is. 1.5 TOV per game in 19 minutes is not hurting you too much. So I suspect his athleticism and defense will overall be a positive for you, over most other available options.

Posted by shoe3 on 5/3/2020 1:22:00 PM (view original):
The ideal set for this kind of player is triangle, I think, where speed and BH deficiency hurts least. Doesn’t mean he can’t be solid at D3 FB/press - I think he clearly is. 1.5 TOV per game in 19 minutes is not hurting you too much. So I suspect his athleticism and defense will overall be a positive for you, over most other available options.

Yeah stats wise he was a pretty useful player even though he started the season with real low IQ's. The thing I wasn't sure of was whether having 1 SPD and 1 BH have any negative effect on my offense or defense that wouldn't show up just looking at his stats.

The 1 speed will likely decrease your teams total TOs forced. I don’t know if this is a widely accepted theory, but I think average team speed (weighted by position) is used to determine Prepossession turnovers. To put simply, higher team speed causes mor me TO in the press.

this is still a major misconception in this game, big men do not incorporate speed as more than as a slight factor in anything. speed is a 0 factor in rebounding, and a very slight factor in defense and offense. how much ath for spd? 10 to 1, 5 to 1 - somewhere in there - my opinion is much closer to the 10 than the 5.

speed is not a core for any big on any team in any situations. its much closer to durability than it is a core, even for fb/fcp.

TJ - thats fair, but the weighting is something like 1.0 0.9 0.7 0.2 0.1 or potentially more extreme (its hard to demonstrate statistically when you have a large effect, whether this other unknown effect is having 0% effect or whether its 10% as big and just getting swamped by the larger effect - you can just tell its extremely small, when you are eyeballing this stuff). given that my early strategy revolved so heavily around maximizing turnovers (not much has changed i suppose), i did *everything* to try to increase that advantage. i ran 4 true guards and a true small forward when i had the rebounding to swing it. 4 guards and a big, none of it helps. once you've maximized speed from the 1-3, you are done getting press TO gains. a pair of 1 speed bigs can win titles in any division, d1 is the hardest (due to the extreme amazingness of the top bigs), but its still very doable. d2/d3? just consider speed durability - totally ignore it - you'll be fine.

this is still a major misconception in this game, big men do not rely on speed in anything but a slight way for anything. speed is a 0 factor in rebounding, and a very slight factor in defense and offense. how much ath for spd? 10 to 1, 5 to 1 - somewhere in there - my opinion is much closer to the 10 than the 5.

speed is not a core for any big on any team in any situations. its much closer to durability than it is a core, even for fb/fcp.

Is this based on your own observations or has WIS said this is true?

I don’t know Billy. I think speed paired with perimeter is still useful at the 5 for scoring. I don’t think you need it, but is worth more than 10-1. I am much closer to 5.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/3/2020 11:41:00 PM (view original):
I don’t know Billy. I think speed paired with perimeter is still useful at the 5 for scoring. I don’t think you need it, but is worth more than 10-1. I am much closer to 5.

the range i provided definitely reflects the reality that there are multi big archetypes and multiple ways to use them. speed's primary value for big men is offense - offensive bigs get some value, reb/def ones mostly do not, even in the press. still, its impact is a small part of a much bigger whole lead by lp, ath, per, iq, and perhaps ft - with speed, bh, pass pulling up the rear.

for a top tier scorer big, i think a 5-1 value is a lot more reasonable. for a non scoring big, 10-1 is probably too generous.

Posted by Baums_away on 5/3/2020 11:21:00 PM (view original):

this is still a major misconception in this game, big men do not rely on speed in anything but a slight way for anything. speed is a 0 factor in rebounding, and a very slight factor in defense and offense. how much ath for spd? 10 to 1, 5 to 1 - somewhere in there - my opinion is much closer to the 10 than the 5.

speed is not a core for any big on any team in any situations. its much closer to durability than it is a core, even for fb/fcp.

Is this based on your own observations or has WIS said this is true?

depends which part - wow i really tripped over that first sentence. what i meant was that speed is never more than a slight factor in a big's abilities, regardless of which part of a big's duties you are considering.

the rebounding part comes from the game admins, i forget which (tarek/seble). i was a bit surprised, i had assumed spd was a slight effect in rebounding just because, i looked at spd/ath as small parts of everything, at the time (i was still fairly new when this was stated).

the offense/defense part comes from me. there is definitely some play style variation on the offensive side, where depending how you play and the role of the big in question, there can be a wide variation in the value of speed. not enough to make it a core, or even close - but still, there is significant variation there.

the defensive side is more cut and dry. everyone expects it to be different for press - past me included. i went into my 'extending speed out from the 3' study full expecting to find a tool to add to my kit. however, i was rebuffed at every turn. there's just nothing left, you can proverbially squeeze every drop from the press with speed at the 1-3. for a team with sub-par speed from the 1-3, can speed at the 4 help offset it a bit? perhaps - i can't rule this out. i suspect the effect is slight if its there at all, at least practically speaking - but all my experimentation was in the vein of trying to build ultra elite teams who push the limits of what is considered possible.