As I try to learn more and improve in this game, I've been working on team building. One of the roles that I feel is very underutilized is the low post scoring guard (at least it has always been underutilized by me). I was really lucky to sign this guy in one of my first seasons at Cal.

Hoops Dynasty – College Basketball Sim Games - Paul Bowden - Ratings - Crum - Hoops Dynasty Basketball | WhatIfSports

He's been a beast for me in his senior season. 18ppg at 51%, averaging 6.5 free throws per game. And according to gillispie's ratings, this is in the #2 conference in HD so he's playing tough competition nightly.

Anyways, what are your baselines for this type of scoring guard? It seems that ATH, LP, and BH are the most important attributes (FT is super nice as well), but what is the minimum you would accept? What about speed? You obviously can't ignore it, but what is acceptable? Are there any other ratings that you would look at with regards to this type of scoring? I can't see how PER or PAS could make any kind of impact on individual scoring, but maybe I'm missing something.

I have a guy very much like him but he has D+ FT. He hits less than 60% from the stripe :(

At D1?

180 ath+def
80 BH
50+ LP
70 Pass

Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/21/2020 6:14:00 AM (view original):
At D1?

180 ath+def
80 BH
50+ LP
70 Pass

Answer his question. Stats are what they are. Still I want to know about that SG/LP slashing mode.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Ratings.aspx?pid=3967396

This guy was never as efficient or as dominant as I would have liked considering I had him on a D3 team. I think the LP in the teens really held him back.

Anyways, what are your baselines for this type of scoring guard? It seems that ATH, LP, and BH are the most important attributes (FT is super nice as well), but what is the minimum you would accept?

For me, it starts with ATH and LP. At D1, it starts at 85 for a guard. Ideally 95+. If a guy has above average ATH for a guard I then look at LP. If the LP is higher than the defenders BLK score, you probably have an advantage. I feel like guards become super efficient somewhere around 70. FT obviously helps but I wouldn't reject a guy unless he was projected to never get out of D range, even then I would probably consider him. BH helps scoring but i don't think it helps more than any other scoring type. He's a guard, he's D1, it probably needs to be 80+.




What about speed? You obviously can't ignore it, but what is acceptable? Are there any other ratings that you would look at with regards to this type of scoring? I can't see how PER or PAS could make any kind of impact on individual scoring, but maybe I'm missing something.


Speed is similar to BH. He's a guard, he's gonna suck without it. It should probably be 80+. I would consider going lower if his other skills were super high. I have seen 100 ATH 60 Speed guys with 90+ BH/PASS be effective but those guys are rare, even rarer if you need a super high LP as well.

I think PER helps, kinda. This isn't a widely accepted position but I believe PER helps. You will draw less fouls but your FG% will increase. Of all the stats you listed, this is the least important. I don't think it's important but it isn't valueless. There are some interesting reads on how the ratio of LP/PER effects scoring. If you aren't familiar with the theory, poke around or ask Billy ;)

I think PASS is very important, particularly at the PG. High PASS rating helps all scoring. The guys with 50 PASS (at the 2, it might be ok at the 3) suffer in my experience, plus they hurt everyone else's FG%.

Posted by tgblackw on 5/21/2020 10:32:00 AM (view original):
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Ratings.aspx?pid=3967396

This guy was never as efficient or as dominant as I would have liked considering I had him on a D3 team. I think the LP in the teens really held him back.

I would have expected him to be better as well. Did you see a lot of minus defenses? Was he doubled a lot?

In general, at D3, I use 20 as a baseline for those type or scorers. I don't think that guy would be dominant but I would be super excited to have him as a second scoring option.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/21/2020 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tgblackw on 5/21/2020 10:32:00 AM (view original):
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Ratings.aspx?pid=3967396

This guy was never as efficient or as dominant as I would have liked considering I had him on a D3 team. I think the LP in the teens really held him back.

I would have expected him to be better as well. Did you see a lot of minus defenses? Was he doubled a lot?

In general, at D3, I use 20 as a baseline for those type or scorers. I don't think that guy would be dominant but I would be super excited to have him as a second scoring option.

I had him 10-12 seasons ago so I don't recall what kind of defenses I saw. He was probably my best player his junior and senior years. Looking back at my rosters from those seasons I had 1-2 decent shooters but no studs. So, he probably saw minus defenses and/or doubles.

With the high ATH, especially at D3, you can dominate SIMS and average humans. You don't even really need LP, I don't have any examples but I have seen 90 ATH, 1 LP, 40 PER, dominate. However, once you start playing the top 20-30 teams those guys go from elite to average.

There are players that you just can't stop. It almost doesn't matter who is covering them, they are gonna get theirs. At D3, I feel like once you hit 120 (ATH+LP) you are pretty close to that for guards.

Thanks for the responses TJ. Obviously you want the highest possible speed, passing, and perimeter. It's just hard to judge how much you can get away with. While passing does help overall offensive efficiency, I don't believe it will help the individual (you can't pass to yourself). Too bad the code isn't advanced enough to know that a guard has drawn in the defense so he can kick out to an open shooter.

Anyways, that's some good info. Much obliged.

LP overrated. I had a dude with 100 ath 90 sp 30 LP 90 bh no per score 10 PPG on the best team in the country. Obviously if he has 55 LP he's scoring 17, but 30 LP wasn't a disaster.

i probably shouldn't have posted that 1 yr conference thing, i did that for my own curiosity once, pac10-7 is 8 on 5yr and 10 on 10yr. so basically between an avg #1 conf in a world and an avg #2 conf in a world - solid but not beastly.

anyway, i agree the slasher guards can be pretty good. i actually value FT pretty well for them, they take so many FTs. if a guy is taking 100 fg and 66 FTs over some number of games, at a 52% fg and 70% ft (the numbers don't matter, but i struggle to leap to the conclusion without an example), that's 150.2 points. 5% increase in FT would be 3.3 more points, equivalent to 1.65% increase in FG %, so you get about a third of the value from FT % increase as you get from FG % increase - which is meaningfully higher than most players.

anyway, whatever units you use, it takes a pretty decent amount of ratings like ath/lp or bh/spd/per to get a few points of fg increase. it feels to me when you look at a guard like the one in the example, who is doing really well - it would be relatively challenging to increase that guy's fg% by say 3.33%. lot of key ratings that just make that player

Sorry gillispie, you can't take those conference rankings back. Now that I know I have a team in the #2 and #6 ranked conferences, I consider myself to be an elite coach. It really doesn't matter that, in both cases, I'm either not contributing to the conference success or straight up just dragging down the conference. I'm going to hold onto the rest of you like an old, rusty anchor.

The defensive slashing guard: my favorite role in HD. I have had these guys on most of my championship teams. They're an integral part of how I run my teams. Here's my collection of my favorites: Robert Wilson, Clyde Yuan, William Lavalley, James Huff (best sim recruit I've ever had), Robert Horner, Timothy Labadie, and Eugene Gray. Love this role.

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/21/2020 10:05:00 PM (view original):
i probably shouldn't have posted that 1 yr conference thing, i did that for my own curiosity once, pac10-7 is 8 on 5yr and 10 on 10yr. so basically between an avg #1 conf in a world and an avg #2 conf in a world - solid but not beastly.

anyway, i agree the slasher guards can be pretty good. i actually value FT pretty well for them, they take so many FTs. if a guy is taking 100 fg and 66 FTs over some number of games, at a 52% fg and 70% ft (the numbers don't matter, but i struggle to leap to the conclusion without an example), that's 150.2 points. 5% increase in FT would be 3.3 more points, equivalent to 1.65% increase in FG %, so you get about a third of the value from FT % increase as you get from FG % increase - which is meaningfully higher than most players.

anyway, whatever units you use, it takes a pretty decent amount of ratings like ath/lp or bh/spd/per to get a few points of fg increase. it feels to me when you look at a guard like the one in the example, who is doing really well - it would be relatively challenging to increase that guy's fg% by say 3.33%. lot of key ratings that just make that player

It is a bit difficult to convert your example into more commonly used statistics, but let me try as this is very relevant to me what with a star slasher with D+ (capped) FT.

(very) Roughly speaking, 100 FGA and 66 FTA is 100+29 (66*.44 rounded) Possessions. His points are 150.2 at 52/-/70 shooting for a "true shooting" % of ~58.2%. At 52/-/75 its +3.3 (=153.5) and TS% of 59.5. For comparison my player is 55.2/-/55.8 which is ~149.208 and 57.8 TS%

However, you have assumed almost exactly a 60/40 FGA/FTA split. My player is actually only 55% FGA which makes the result tricky to report as a comparison because you have to decide whether to preserve the FGA/FTA split or balance them out in terms of possessions (which is a "derived" stat).

My player ends up shooting on 5% more of his possessions used if you do that calculation (82.5 to 77.5). For simplicity, if you plug your percentages (52/-/70) into my players actual attempts you get a TS% of 59.3 compared to my player's 58.3 %.

With your distribution (100 FG 66 FT) +1 FG% = ~3 FT% to keep points scored equal whereas mine would look more like 91 FG 75 FT and 1 FG% ~= 2.3 FT%

The end result is that your player with your hypothetical distribution and my player with his real stats have eerily similar efficiency (~58.2-58.3)

This is all assuming I crunched all the numbers correctly lol.