Fatigue Issues Against Uptempo/Fastbreak/Fullcourt Topic

There is a team in my league that plays Uptempo/Fastbreak/Fullcourt in which I have a career record of 0-5. A few of these times, I have had the better team on paper but I always run in to fatigue issues while he/she does not. This is odd considering I play a slowdown to mute the impact. What are your thoughts on playing someone with this strategy and why do they not fatigue playing all three of the most tiring strategies? Sidenote: Whenever I play this team I have 11 or 12 deep on the depth chart and set everyone to the “Fairly Fresh” substation qualification. Am I doing something blatantly wrong?
6/4/2020 9:11 AM
i don't know abt the fatigue issue..but if you're the better team i would match tempo with them..it's worked for me at times
6/4/2020 9:25 AM
Blatantly? No.

Couple points:

1. Most of these teams try to get you into foul trouble which causes the players w/o fouls to play more, get tire, an thus foul more. We usually refer that to that as the fatigue (or foul/fatigue) spiral. It's deadly.
2. IMO, these teams are kinda gimmicky and a well crafted balanced team should win.
3. Strategies to try to combat this are: play a + defense since that limit's fouls, recruit more ATH and STA since those always help, load up the distro on your best players, they can't double.
6/4/2020 9:30 AM
I don't think your coaching adjustments are wrong. I'd do the same thing in trying to slow it down. From what I see it is your teams stamina that is the issue. Your highest ST rating is an 81 and then quickly falls into the 70's (not very good). Just like in the real world, a team can have the intention to play slow down ball, but at some points in the game, the opponent is going to have their way by using their quick scoring and pressure defense which will lead to your team's overall low ST rating coming into effect.
I think the issue lies in your team's ST rating and not your adjustments.
6/4/2020 9:36 AM
Posted by BDsaint785 on 6/4/2020 9:36:00 AM (view original):
I don't think your coaching adjustments are wrong. I'd do the same thing in trying to slow it down. From what I see it is your teams stamina that is the issue. Your highest ST rating is an 81 and then quickly falls into the 70's (not very good). Just like in the real world, a team can have the intention to play slow down ball, but at some points in the game, the opponent is going to have their way by using their quick scoring and pressure defense which will lead to your team's overall low ST rating coming into effect.
I think the issue lies in your team's ST rating and not your adjustments.
I agree with this for the OP. Your team ST is 75. That's gonna hurt sometimes against a well built uptempo press team. Well built meaning their ST is up around 80 as a team.

You also said you run "11 or 12 deep". If it's 11, that makes your situation even worse. One less body to eat up minutes.
6/4/2020 10:46 AM
If you're better you can run uptempo against the press to try and flip the fatigue/foul death spiral onto the pressing team, but that's probably not a good idea if their stamina is significantly better than yours.
6/4/2020 12:04 PM
I dont see anyone in your league that runs fb fcp.
6/5/2020 12:06 AM
A big thing that's majorly overlooked in my opinion about tempo is whether you like your starter vs starter matchup more or your bench vs bench matchup more with opponents. Basically, depth (not just amount of players wise but) talent wise.
6/5/2020 12:30 AM
Posted by Adjacent1 on 6/5/2020 12:06:00 AM (view original):
I dont see anyone in your league that runs fb fcp.
By league, I think he may be talking about division (D3). I suspect the team in question is Linfield, who incidentally has a helluva coach.
6/5/2020 6:13 AM
Posted by emy1013 on 6/5/2020 6:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Adjacent1 on 6/5/2020 12:06:00 AM (view original):
I dont see anyone in your league that runs fb fcp.
By league, I think he may be talking about division (D3). I suspect the team in question is Linfield, who incidentally has a helluva coach.
Ahh yes thanks emy. And yeah figuring out how to beat linfield is quite the task!
6/6/2020 7:57 PM
One thing I have done before against teams like that is set my starters to fairly fresh and all of my subs to getting tired. It helps prevent you from having players on the floor at tired or very tired.
6/6/2020 11:20 PM
Posted by mrslam34 on 6/6/2020 11:20:00 PM (view original):
One thing I have done before against teams like that is set my starters to fairly fresh and all of my subs to getting tired. It helps prevent you from having players on the floor at tired or very tired.
+1
7.0.3
6/7/2020 12:59 AM
Posted by mrslam34 on 6/6/2020 11:20:00 PM (view original):
One thing I have done before against teams like that is set my starters to fairly fresh and all of my subs to getting tired. It helps prevent you from having players on the floor at tired or very tired.
See I'm not so sure this is helpful. And maybe I'm looking at this wrong.

I keep everyone set at fairly fresh as well. But the problem is, in games with two elite FB/press teams both running uptempo (or any sets really), you don't have players that are always fresh. So the engine goes to "whoever is the freshest on the depth chart". No?

So if you change the settings on bench players to getting tired (or ANY setting really), to me that wouldn't do anything anyways because everyone is STILL going to be tired in those type of games. So it wouldn't have an impact.

UNLESS I've looked at this all wrong from day 1. I've always looked at the fatigue settings as when they sub OUT. But is it steered more towards when they sub IN? I'll explain.....

I've looked at it as always wanting your players fresh. So if they drop down to getting tired, they sub out. When the bench player gets tired he subs out and starter back in. But if it's based on when they sub IN, why would you want your "bench" players set at getting tired? Wouldn't that sub them in more quickly since it takes less time to build UP to getting tired than it would to build up to fairly fresh? So why would that benefit, if you want your starters in more often?

I need a 10 page gil response here please!

6/7/2020 9:50 PM
Wouldn't it just increase the minutes for your bench players?
6/7/2020 10:38 PM
Posted by mrslam34 on 6/6/2020 11:20:00 PM (view original):
One thing I have done before against teams like that is set my starters to fairly fresh and all of my subs to getting tired. It helps prevent you from having players on the floor at tired or very tired.
this is one of the more interesting posts i've read since i started playing again a year ago, i've never heard or tried this idea before. it sounds like there's a rational basis behind it though, i'll have to check it out! i have done something sort of similar for individual backups, but primarily for a different reason... doing it team wide is pretty interesting.

dogg, i don't know whether to say the depth chart is about subbing out or subbing in. the simplest way to think about it is the game goes into every sub opportunity and considers who is eligible to play given their fatigue and foul situation, and then it picks the best 5 man lineup (lowest sum of depth chart positions, tiebreaker left to right column wise). i don't think it really cares who is in or out (although it perhaps tried to avoid subbing guys in and out every 5 seconds). if there is valid 5 man lineup - fatigue/fouls are prohibiting players from playing - then it will loosen up a bit on fatigue. i'm not 100% on this loosening, but i think it sort of tries to find the minimum number of fatigue violators first, and then the minimum sum of positions second - but it perhaps could be a more balanced heuristic.

in short, when you say 'wouldnt the engine just go to whoever is freshest', once everyone is tired - the answer is pretty much yes, but with the caveat that all 'ties', which aren't necessarily ties, go to the starters. meaning, if you think of fatigue as a range - fresh is 100->80, fairly fresh 80->60, getting tired 60->40, and so on - then if everyone is set to fairly fresh, and your starters are 61 while your backups are 79, your starters will go in. this is not desirable, and incidentally is the key downside to how fatigue depth chart works (particularly, for getting tired starters - who will sub in at 61 even with a 90 backup - which is terrible)

so, i think i can see how this approach could help. the key is that you know you are going to to have everyone tired by the end of the half - and therefore, you want to make sure your backups are staying in there longer, giving your starters time to rest up more. mechanically, you are trying to soften up that tie breaker.

if we think through the beginning of the half, i think it helps see why. 5 starters are fresh. they play part way into fairly fresh when a sub opportunity comes along, then sub out. let's just assume hockey style, now all 5 backups are in. 30 seconds later, a sub opportunity comes along - and half your starters are now slightly into the 'fresh' range. well, they all go back in, they are meeting their fatigue condition. some of the backups coming out are barely fatigued - they'll end up sitting even while at 100, wasting the 'total team fatigue potential', if you will. we actually don't want this - but we have no ability to stop it. there is no control whereby we can prevent this from happening, at least in the fatigue style of depth chart.

however, fast forward a bit - the whole team got tired - everyone is fairly fresh (or some pairs of 1/2s at whatever positions). who do you want to play? very possibly, the backups are a better fairly fresh - this is probably true, as backups are almost always less tired. on top of that, the starters are the ones who push themselves to intense fatigue levels, because they are forced back in at the bottom of their listed range, the 'ties' are broad and broken towards the starters, so they'll continue to tire out ahead of the backups for as long as play continues. so, just like earlier - when we had no control - we really would rather the backups play a bit longer to give the starters a chance to freshen up. but now, there is a control - backups on getting tired.

if the game ran long enough, this could work against you, because in a couple words, what this change should do is swap from all tie breakers to the starters, to fairly fresh tie breakers to starters, while lower fatigue tie breakers go to the backups. given enough time, everyone is orange and stuff, you'd be playing your backups more kind of like you suggested. i don't think the fatigue usually gets that bad though, so in most cases, there should be a little evening out of fatigue between backups and starters, which is usually a good thing.

i will say, i set backups to getting tired from time to time to get them more minutes over lower backups (esp in attempted 3 man rotations, 3 key guys over 2 spots), because they tend to just stay in a bit longer over lower backups, and then the starters force them out, letting them rest up. its kind of a similar concept. it can backfire if a starter gets in foul trouble though, so probably the same applies to what mrslam said.
6/7/2020 11:44 PM
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