Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 7:58:00 PM (view original):

According to Brenda Cossman, a professor of law at the University of Toronto, Peterson is “fundamentally mischaracterizing” Bill C-16.

“I don’t know if he’s misunderstanding it, but he’s mischaracterizing it,” Cossman says.

(Brenda Cossman spoke to Torontoist about this, but you can find what else she’s said on the issue here.)

Cossman says it seems Peterson is trying to argue that the misuse of pronouns could constitute hate speech.

“I don’t think there’s any legal expert that would say that [this] would meet the threshold for hate speech in Canada,” she says.

Our courts have a very high threshold for what kind of comments actually constitutes hate speech, and the nature of speech would have to be much more extreme than simply pronoun misuse, according to Cossman.

“The misuse of pronouns is not equivalent to advocating genocide in any conceivable manner,” she continues. “If he advocated genocide against trans people, he would be in violation, but misusing pronouns is not what that provision of the code is about.”

Cossman, who has participated in a debate with Peterson, takes issue with the way he uses the language to describe what could happen if he was found in violation of the Ontario Human Rights Code.

“If he was found guilty by the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal, he would have been doing something illegal but not criminal,” Cossman says. In other words, he wouldn’t go to jail. Jail is only a punishment for committing a criminal offence—a violation of the Criminal Code.

If Peterson was found to be in violation of the code, there are different possible remedies. He could be ordered to pay money, he could be ordered to correct the behaviour, he could be ordered to go to training, etc.

That's a huge YIKES for your argument.

Okay. Now look up the parliamentary hearing where a legal expert laid out how it could be construed as hate speech. My argument stands.

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 8:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 7:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 7:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 7:54:00 PM (view original):
Let me run a scenario by you. I have to go in front of the human rights tribunal for misgendering someone. I am cited and refuse to pay the fine. Do you not think they will imprison me for that?

If only there was a single case of this happening in the four years since the Amendment. Oops. Looks like criminal scholars AND empirics disagree with you on this one.

You said that you’ve read the bill. I have as well. Assuming you are telling the truth, you can agree that this is possibility based on the wording of the bill. I can’t speak on whether this scenario has played out yet or not, but I hope you can see how even the possibility is dangerous.

It's not a possibility. No one has even come close to being arrested (as far as I know, no one has even had to pay a fine for misgendering). Legal experts disagree that someone will ever be arrested.

You don't have an argument. It's not poorly written, at least more than any other law.

This was a bullshit narrative started by Jordan Peterson to get right wingers fearful and upset. What guitarguy said is just a lie.

Even Cossman’s analysis says that people may be fined or have to go to training. What happens if I refuse? I go to jail, right?

You’re own source backs up my claim. I gave you free win the other day. I guess we are tied 1-1.

Sorry, but I'm not going to bother. The vast majority of legal experts understand it as bullshit and in 4 years, not one case has come up. If you want to be scared of a law that doesn't produce arrests, you can be. I, for one, want a C-16 passed in my area.

None of this changes the fact that guitarguy blatantly lied about the effects of the bill. No, you cannot be arrested for simply misgendering someone in Canada. If you could, people would have already.

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 8:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 8:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 7:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 7:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 7:54:00 PM (view original):
Let me run a scenario by you. I have to go in front of the human rights tribunal for misgendering someone. I am cited and refuse to pay the fine. Do you not think they will imprison me for that?

If only there was a single case of this happening in the four years since the Amendment. Oops. Looks like criminal scholars AND empirics disagree with you on this one.

You said that you’ve read the bill. I have as well. Assuming you are telling the truth, you can agree that this is possibility based on the wording of the bill. I can’t speak on whether this scenario has played out yet or not, but I hope you can see how even the possibility is dangerous.

It's not a possibility. No one has even come close to being arrested (as far as I know, no one has even had to pay a fine for misgendering). Legal experts disagree that someone will ever be arrested.

You don't have an argument. It's not poorly written, at least more than any other law.

This was a bullshit narrative started by Jordan Peterson to get right wingers fearful and upset. What guitarguy said is just a lie.

Even Cossman’s analysis says that people may be fined or have to go to training. What happens if I refuse? I go to jail, right?

What happens if you refuse to pay a parking ticket or go to a driving class?

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 8:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 8:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 7:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 7:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 7:54:00 PM (view original):
Let me run a scenario by you. I have to go in front of the human rights tribunal for misgendering someone. I am cited and refuse to pay the fine. Do you not think they will imprison me for that?

If only there was a single case of this happening in the four years since the Amendment. Oops. Looks like criminal scholars AND empirics disagree with you on this one.

You said that you’ve read the bill. I have as well. Assuming you are telling the truth, you can agree that this is possibility based on the wording of the bill. I can’t speak on whether this scenario has played out yet or not, but I hope you can see how even the possibility is dangerous.

It's not a possibility. No one has even come close to being arrested (as far as I know, no one has even had to pay a fine for misgendering). Legal experts disagree that someone will ever be arrested.

You don't have an argument. It's not poorly written, at least more than any other law.

This was a bullshit narrative started by Jordan Peterson to get right wingers fearful and upset. What guitarguy said is just a lie.

Even Cossman’s analysis says that people may be fined or have to go to training. What happens if I refuse? I go to jail, right?

You're misreading the claim. The source says that people FOUND GUILTY may be fined. My argument is still valid. Even in a worst case scenario, no one is going to jail for misgendering someone. At worst, you are going to get fined for misgendering someone. What guitarguy said is STILL false.

3 unlikely events have to go your way for anyone to go to jail:

1. A trans person has to take someone to court or report a misgendering - NEVER happened in four years.
2. The person has to be found guilty - my source says that this is unlikely, but since no one has even gone to court, we don't know.
3. Someone has to refuse to pay a fine, for some reason.

Can you see how you are grasping at straws? This is never going to happen.

You’re own source inadvertently makes that point. Mic drop!!!






Just kidding. I love you, Tang!

Posted by Uofa2 on 6/9/2020 8:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 8:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 8:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 7:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 7:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 6/9/2020 7:54:00 PM (view original):
Let me run a scenario by you. I have to go in front of the human rights tribunal for misgendering someone. I am cited and refuse to pay the fine. Do you not think they will imprison me for that?

If only there was a single case of this happening in the four years since the Amendment. Oops. Looks like criminal scholars AND empirics disagree with you on this one.

You said that you’ve read the bill. I have as well. Assuming you are telling the truth, you can agree that this is possibility based on the wording of the bill. I can’t speak on whether this scenario has played out yet or not, but I hope you can see how even the possibility is dangerous.

It's not a possibility. No one has even come close to being arrested (as far as I know, no one has even had to pay a fine for misgendering). Legal experts disagree that someone will ever be arrested.

You don't have an argument. It's not poorly written, at least more than any other law.

This was a bullshit narrative started by Jordan Peterson to get right wingers fearful and upset. What guitarguy said is just a lie.

Even Cossman’s analysis says that people may be fined or have to go to training. What happens if I refuse? I go to jail, right?

What happens if you refuse to pay a parking ticket or go to a driving class?

You go to jail. Proves my point exactly. Canada now has a law that says that if you don’t use their dictated speech, you receive the same punishment. Please tell me you can see how this is bad.

I appreciate your ability to actually argue for ideas (unlike some people here) but you're just wrong on this one. I'll concede that if those three things happen, someone could go to jail for not paying a fine. You wouldn't be going to jail for misgendering someone. My original claim, that guitarguy is lying, is still true.

If people were actually going to jail for misgendering people, you would have a point. But it isn't happening. It will never happen.

Even under the law as written, in the worst case scenario, no one will ever go to jail for misgendering someone.

But that is what you would be going to jail for. I would not pay a fine in that situation. No one is going to force me to use certain language. This is Soviet type crap.

Yes, technically you would be going to jail for not paying the fine, but what is the fine for?

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 8:19:00 PM (view original):
If people were actually going to jail for misgendering people, you would have a point. But it isn't happening. It will never happen.

Even under the law as written, in the worst case scenario, no one will ever go to jail for misgendering someone.

That is simply not true. You’ve read the bill. You know that it’s a possibility. The argument of “it hasn’t happened yet” is a terrible argument. Laws that compel speech are bad laws and ultimately stomp on freedom. Call me paranoid if you want, but the 20th century was not very long ago. Whether it was Stalin on the left or Hitler, the first thing they both attacked was freedom of speech and thought. Be very careful dismissing this. We’ve seen it play out before.

If you get a parking ticket and refuse to pay a fine, you went to jail for refusing to pay a fine, not a parking ticket violation.

The C-16 bill doesn't reduce freedom of speech. Do you disagree with the other element of C-16 (restricting calling for the genocide of trans people), C-16 as a whole, which extended similar protections to race, gender, and sexuality, yelling "fire" in a theatre, saying you have a bomb on a plane, etc. etc.

We accept reasonable limits on freedom of speech every day.

Again, all of this is assuming that trans people would actually take this to court for simply misgendering, which they absolutely would not. Or at least, many would, but somehow forgot to in four years.

Comparing C-16 to Stalin and Hitler is ridiculous and you know it. C-16 is a good bill, and isn't going to send you to jail for misgendering. If you disagree with C-16, you disagree with every restriction on free speech. At that point, your issue doesn't stop with C-16, and has nothing to do with trans people.

Posted by tangplay on 6/9/2020 8:19:00 PM (view original):
If people were actually going to jail for misgendering people, you would have a point. But it isn't happening. It will never happen.

Even under the law as written, in the worst case scenario, no one will ever go to jail for misgendering someone.

There is no such thing as misgendering. There are two genders.

You can have mental illness. You can have lawyers. You can have doctors.

Doesn't change science. There are only two genders.