Autonomous Zone in Seattle Topic

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/15/2020 1:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coreander on 6/15/2020 1:54:00 PM (view original):
Universal healthcare coverage will obviously save lives. How is that even debatable?
Because it isn't happening...
Because of quality of life issues yet you're here blaming the ACA for reasons?
6/15/2020 2:05 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/15/2020 1:31:00 PM (view original):
If you read my more extended posts in the other thread, you'd see that I don't blame the ACA for reduced life expectancy. What I do think is clear is that it hasn't done anything to improve healthcare outcomes. I really don't care about coverage. Anybody can go to an ER. If your primary goal was to subsidize hospitals in areas with a lot of uninsured people (poor neighborhoods) you could do that directly with many billions of dollars less overhead. If your primary goal was to keep people healthier/alive, it failed.

I did point out that I think the ACA accelerated the process of decreasing PCP visit times, which I do think is a tangible harm.

What I do think is clear is that it hasn't done anything to improve healthcare outcomes.

You have done nothing to prove that. Correlation is not causation. Very simple. You would need to demonstrate what life expectancy would be without the ACA to make such a claim.

Doing a bit of research, I haven't found a single study suggesting that the ACA is to blame for the dip. Overwhelmingly, researchers blame the rising deaths of despair in America.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w15213.pdf

6/15/2020 4:47 PM (edited)
Posted by Uofa2 on 6/15/2020 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/15/2020 1:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coreander on 6/15/2020 1:54:00 PM (view original):
Universal healthcare coverage will obviously save lives. How is that even debatable?
Because it isn't happening...
Because of quality of life issues yet you're here blaming the ACA for reasons?
There has been research on why the life expectancy is dropping. It's not on the ACA.
6/15/2020 2:15 PM
I'm not really sure your 2009 reference is particularly relevant.
6/15/2020 2:27 PM
Look, I'll stop beating around the bush because I have a meeting at 3. In general when I have this discussion and people cite "research" about "deaths of despair," they're usually talking about popular/news sites summarizing Woolf et al. It is very clear that this article was written with an agenda, because it also summarizes its own data in this way - falling life expectancy is due to deaths of middle-aged white Americans because of drug- and alcohol-related causes. And if you look at percentage changes, this narrative actually works. But if you look at the supplementary information for the article you'll notice that the biggest increases since 2010 in actual total deaths in this age group, drugs are out in front, but they're followed not by alcohol and suicide but diabetes and heart disease. Unfortunately since I'm away from work I don't have journal access to download the actual numbers atm. But I know diabetes and heart disease were 2nd and 3rd in net increase in deaths among the age group the authors cite as the source of declining life expectancy. Their "death of despair" conclusions are largely driven by personal bias. The reality is that a huge factor is worse outcomes from managed health issues.

Which, really, is not surprising given the 30% decline in visits to PCPs I referenced above.
6/15/2020 2:56 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/15/2020 2:56:00 PM (view original):
Look, I'll stop beating around the bush because I have a meeting at 3. In general when I have this discussion and people cite "research" about "deaths of despair," they're usually talking about popular/news sites summarizing Woolf et al. It is very clear that this article was written with an agenda, because it also summarizes its own data in this way - falling life expectancy is due to deaths of middle-aged white Americans because of drug- and alcohol-related causes. And if you look at percentage changes, this narrative actually works. But if you look at the supplementary information for the article you'll notice that the biggest increases since 2010 in actual total deaths in this age group, drugs are out in front, but they're followed not by alcohol and suicide but diabetes and heart disease. Unfortunately since I'm away from work I don't have journal access to download the actual numbers atm. But I know diabetes and heart disease were 2nd and 3rd in net increase in deaths among the age group the authors cite as the source of declining life expectancy. Their "death of despair" conclusions are largely driven by personal bias. The reality is that a huge factor is worse outcomes from managed health issues.

Which, really, is not surprising given the 30% decline in visits to PCPs I referenced above.
Yes, it’s everyone else’s conclusions that are being driven by a personal bias.
6/15/2020 3:23 PM
Posted by coreander on 6/15/2020 1:54:00 PM (view original):
Universal healthcare coverage will obviously save lives. How is that even debatable?
What is universal healthcare coverage.......FAKE GUY DINO 27?
6/15/2020 3:30 PM
Posted by tangplay on 6/15/2020 2:58:00 PM (view original):
****, I copied the wrong link.

Here ya go:
https://www.aafp.org/news/health-of-the-public/20181210lifeexpectdrop.html#:~:text=%22The%20latest%20CDC%20data%20show,from%20drug%20overdose%20and%20suicide.

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/suppl/2018/08/15/bmj.k3096.DC1/mid_life_mortality_v37_datasupp.pdf

https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2019/12/02/middle-age-death

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/life-expectancy-in-the-united-states-declining-thanks-to-obamacare/
Ok, so to start out, the BMJ and Advisory Board links are both exactly what I described - summaries of Woolf. You'll notice that bmj summary uses 1999-2016 data. This is somewhat misleading RE: ACA effects, but fortunately the actual study has tables in the supplementary information reporting both 1999-2016 and 2010-2016 data separately. It's important to note how the bottom right figure changes in this time window. From 1999-2010, the components listed here as "organ disease" actually had negative excess deaths, so the 2010-2016 excess deaths are closer to 50k. However, the external causes deaths trend up over the full duration of the study, so excess deaths from 2010-2016 are IIRC ~25-30k. I already alluded to this in my summary of the Woolf paper earlier - drug abuse is in fact the leading cause of the so-called excess deaths from 2010-2016, but in an aggregated sense the things here referred to as "organ disease" are still a larger driver of excess deaths during the relevant time period than "external causes" like suicide and drug-related deaths. However, nothing in this study attempts to unpack the role of drug abuse in the organ disease category, so drug-related syndromes could play an even bigger role than these data suggest at face value. Not really clear if an addict dying of a heart attack at 47 counts as heart disease or drug deaths. Or maybe it's in there and I just don't remember that detail.

I haven't read the CDC briefings discussed in the AAFP summary. Let's be honest, it's based on a 1-year sample and not longer-term trends, so it's kind of inherently pointless. I could try to make something of the fact that the biggest proportional increase in mortality rate in their sample is from the influenza and pneumonia category, but let's be honest, the biggest driver of variance in this category is the severity of the seasonal flu epidemic from year to year. Which is exactly why single year-over-year changes aren't particularly enlightening relative to longer-term studies, which do exist.

Snopes is the huge win here for my argument. So thanks for that. I actually learned something new. Note the quote from Chetty et al. near the bottom:

Measures of health insurance coverage and spending (the fraction of uninsured and risk-adjusted Medicare spending per enrollee) were not significantly associated with life expectancy for individuals in the bottom income quartile.

This is kinda my argument in a nutshell. Just providing coverage doesn't actually make people healthier until you do something to actually increase the availability of care. How many times today has someone said "how can providing access to healthcare not improve the health of Americans," or something along those lines? Well, you just posted the answer for me. Statistically speaking, this study that made it into Snopes found that insurance does not improve healthcare outcomes for low-income Americans.
6/15/2020 4:35 PM
From the JAMA article summary:

geographic differences in life expectancy for individuals in the lowest income quartile were significantly correlated with health behaviors such as smoking (r?=?-0.69, P?<?.001), but were not significantly correlated with access to medical care, physical environmental factors, income inequality, or labor market conditions.

6/15/2020 4:39 PM
So maybe we can agree on the idea that Obamacare was a positive because more Americans gained access to healthcare, but more improvements must be actually needed to the healthcare system in order to ensure that health outcomes actually rise with more care?
6/15/2020 4:44 PM
I feel like at this point in the discussion, we're talking past each other.
6/15/2020 4:49 PM
Posted by tangplay on 6/15/2020 4:49:00 PM (view original):
I feel like at this point in the discussion, we're talking past each other.
He’s been talking past everyone the whole time. He’s making an entirely new argument.
6/15/2020 4:51 PM
Posted by tangplay on 6/15/2020 4:44:00 PM (view original):
So maybe we can agree on the idea that Obamacare was a positive because more Americans gained access to healthcare, but more improvements must be actually needed to the healthcare system in order to ensure that health outcomes actually rise with more care?
I don't think we agree on this. We apparently have different ideas of what constitutes an inherent good; mine seems to be much more practical. This concept that something could be good if it worked doesn't impress me very much. If it's demonstrably true that healthcare outcomes aren't improving as a result of extending insurance coverage, then I don't think extending coverage is "a positive." At best, if we think the administrative costs end up getting balanced somewhere else in the system, it's "a net neutral."

I do think that we probably are talking past each other at this point. I'm not convinced the ACA is a significant stepping stone towards a functional single-payer system. If you think it is, then I can see supporting it. I assume at some point in the next few decades we'll manage to set up a single-payer system.
6/15/2020 5:01 PM
Posted by Uofa2 on 6/15/2020 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/15/2020 2:56:00 PM (view original):
Look, I'll stop beating around the bush because I have a meeting at 3. In general when I have this discussion and people cite "research" about "deaths of despair," they're usually talking about popular/news sites summarizing Woolf et al. It is very clear that this article was written with an agenda, because it also summarizes its own data in this way - falling life expectancy is due to deaths of middle-aged white Americans because of drug- and alcohol-related causes. And if you look at percentage changes, this narrative actually works. But if you look at the supplementary information for the article you'll notice that the biggest increases since 2010 in actual total deaths in this age group, drugs are out in front, but they're followed not by alcohol and suicide but diabetes and heart disease. Unfortunately since I'm away from work I don't have journal access to download the actual numbers atm. But I know diabetes and heart disease were 2nd and 3rd in net increase in deaths among the age group the authors cite as the source of declining life expectancy. Their "death of despair" conclusions are largely driven by personal bias. The reality is that a huge factor is worse outcomes from managed health issues.

Which, really, is not surprising given the 30% decline in visits to PCPs I referenced above.
Yes, it’s everyone else’s conclusions that are being driven by a personal bias.
Feel free to look at the actual data and explain to me how I'm wrong.
6/15/2020 5:01 PM
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