Posted by tangplay on 6/17/2020 8:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/17/2020 8:04:00 PM (view original):
Every internal audit I've seen made public comes in between 98 and 99.5%. For whatever that's worth. There is probably some incentive for IA to lean on the side of their own officers.

I STRONGLY doubt this info. How do they determine who is resisting? The ******* officer who killed the person?

Yeah, I really don't know the answer to that. Just that internal reviews consistently find 98-99.5% of all police killings to be justified. You may recall that this was first a news story when Willie Williams conducted an internal review of killings by the LAPD after the Rodney King riots and found that less than 1% could even be considered for criminal prosecution. But like I said, it's likely IA in most departments leans towards protecting the department.

And as I previously mentioned in another thread, the biggest problem with these analyses is that they generally only consider what happens in the few seconds leading up to a police killing. If the victim was armed and in any way threatening anyone, the officer is generally exonerated without question. Nobody knows how many police shootings could be prevented if officers were better trained in crisis management. I suspect a large proportion could be avoided if officers knew better what to do in the minutes leading up to police shootings. Looking at only seconds is definitely short-sighted.

With that being said, given how things are currently determined I don't think the reported numbers are wildly far off. For at least the past few years I strongly suspect that a large proportion of all police killings that could be reasonably taken as murders, at least with black victims, have made national headlines. Which means that there really aren't all that many of them.

Posted by bheid408 on 6/17/2020 8:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 6/17/2020 7:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bheid408 on 6/17/2020 4:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 6/17/2020 1:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Uofa2 on 6/17/2020 8:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bheid408 on 6/17/2020 8:00:00 AM (view original):
I realize this is OFF topic but I can't help but wonder how many people killed by police would be alive if they didn't resist being arrested?
My guess would be 100%.
Evidently they don't teach that at Black Lives Matter protests or rallys.

Yikes.

At which point was George Floyd not resisting arrest? After 2 minutes with a knee on his neck?

3?
4?
5 minutes?
6?
7?
8 minutes?

Again: yikes, dude. You waddled in here thinking you really had a heater, huh? Self-owns abound.

I was going to respond the same way. You beat me to it, Uofa2.
Bheid, I feel very confident in saying your guess of 100% is wrong.

ok, 99.9% then

if you seriously think that 99.9% of the people killed by the police deserved it because they were resisting arrest, you haven't been paying attention.

Just pointing out the obvious that so many people are missing. If you are being arrested or apprehended (since bronx can't comprehend there is no difference), why resist? If someone is too ignorant to know that resisting has lead to others getting killed then they must not be paying attention.

Did most, if not all of these people deserve to die? Absolutely NOT! But then be smart enough to know NOT to put yourself into that situation.

Arrests are inherently a high-tension situation. The police have experience in these situations and can be trained to manage them. The suspect can't be reasonably expected to be prepared for an arrest. Did you see Jay Pharoah's arrest video he posted? He wasn't guilty of anything, and was treated pretty roughly. He had no reason to have prepared himself for what to do if he has numerous guns drawn on him, gets on the ground, is leaned on, etc. There is only one side of this equation that can be saddled with the responsibility for managing the situation. It's not the person being arrested.

I have said that this is one of the issues I have with BLM. I think a lot of their rhetoric paints an unrealistically bad picture of how typical arrest scenarios turn out for black Americans. This makes them less likely to be compliant. Regardless of your guilt or innocence, if everyone is telling you that the entire criminal justice system is stacked against you what motivation do you have to cooperate with police officers? So while I will always maintain that the onus is 100% on the officers to manage arrest situations, that doesn't let activists off the hook for ramping up the tension in already stressful and dangerous situations.

I don't buy it. At all. If there is a police killing, the officer is going to post hoc justify their actions by saying that the person they killed was resisting. Why wouldn't they, if it's their word vs someone who's dead?

The real number wouldn't even be close to 99%. That's ridiculous, and we both know it. Even then, my question of "what is resisting" is still relevant. There's a big difference between running away or not being completely silent, vs pulling a gun or fighting. This is a clear attempt to exonerate police violence and blame those they kill.

Your BLM argument is cute on the surface, but I don't think there's any reason to make that assumption until we get some sort of data behind it. It's a fairly bold move to condemn BLM over a potential impact on cooperation with the police. I could just as easily make the argument that these problems have always existed in these communities, and BLM is simply a reaction to it. Chicken and egg. Again, this all going off of an assumption that there is any validity to your claim.

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/17/2020 11:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/17/2020 8:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/17/2020 8:04:00 PM (view original):
Every internal audit I've seen made public comes in between 98 and 99.5%. For whatever that's worth. There is probably some incentive for IA to lean on the side of their own officers.

I STRONGLY doubt this info. How do they determine who is resisting? The ******* officer who killed the person?

Yeah, I really don't know the answer to that. Just that internal reviews consistently find 98-99.5% of all police killings to be justified. You may recall that this was first a news story when Willie Williams conducted an internal review of killings by the LAPD after the Rodney King riots and found that less than 1% could even be considered for criminal prosecution. But like I said, it's likely IA in most departments leans towards protecting the department.

And as I previously mentioned in another thread, the biggest problem with these analyses is that they generally only consider what happens in the few seconds leading up to a police killing. If the victim was armed and in any way threatening anyone, the officer is generally exonerated without question. Nobody knows how many police shootings could be prevented if officers were better trained in crisis management. I suspect a large proportion could be avoided if officers knew better what to do in the minutes leading up to police shootings. Looking at only seconds is definitely short-sighted.

Jesus ******* Christ that's the point.

Dylan Roof.
The Tree of Life guy.
The unarmed man running away drunk in a Wendy's parking lot when cops really should been on the straight and narrow about this thing?

What do they all not have in common and in common?

Well, 2 are white and mass murdered people and are alive.

1 didn't, is dead, and black.

Speaking of Wendy's, someone want to try explaining what purpose it served, or what message was intented to be sent by burning it down? And HOW anyone was supposed to get that purpose/message.

There are good people on both sides......

You honestly think we are going to defend burning stores? Why does this even matter, all3?

They was juz tryin g to get Wendy's to GRILL them freaking burgers!

Posted by tangplay on 6/18/2020 10:48:00 AM (view original):
You honestly think we are going to defend burning stores? Why does this even matter, all3?

I have spoken to several people (my own son is one) who defended the rioting and looting. Is it that much of a big step to defend burning down a Wendy's? I don't defend any of it. You riot, loot or destroy property, you are no longer a protester, you are a criminal.

Private property I won't defend. I don't care about public property that relates to the protest.

But I still don't understand the emphasis on the rioting and looting. It doesn't matter, and it's completely irrelevant as a criticism to BLM.

Posted by wylie715 on 6/18/2020 12:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/18/2020 10:48:00 AM (view original):
You honestly think we are going to defend burning stores? Why does this even matter, all3?

I have spoken to several people (my own son is one) who defended the rioting and looting. Is it that much of a big step to defend burning down a Wendy's? I don't defend any of it. You riot, loot or destroy property, you are no longer a protester, you are a criminal.

How do you think revolutions happen? It is your white privilege that leads you to prioritize property over black lives. Defund the police. Say their names. No more innocent people shot for the crime of falling asleep at Wendy's. Black Lives Matter not white fragility!

Posted by coreander on 6/18/2020 12:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 6/18/2020 12:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/18/2020 10:48:00 AM (view original):
You honestly think we are going to defend burning stores? Why does this even matter, all3?

I have spoken to several people (my own son is one) who defended the rioting and looting. Is it that much of a big step to defend burning down a Wendy's? I don't defend any of it. You riot, loot or destroy property, you are no longer a protester, you are a criminal.

How do you think revolutions happen? It is your white privilege that leads you to prioritize property over black lives. Defund the police. Say their names. No more innocent people shot for the crime of falling asleep at Wendy's. Black Lives Matter not white fragility!

Y'all really gotta get better at not alienating allies.

I do not want centrist allies. If older, "moderate Democrats" are going to criticize "looters", I want all statues of our founding fathers and anyone who took part in the "American Revolution" removed. If you cannot see how they are the same thing, you are just as guilty of being blinded by your privilege.

Posted by coreander on 6/18/2020 12:42:00 PM (view original):
I do not want centrist allies. If older, "moderate Democrats" are going to criticize "looters", I want all statues of our founding fathers and anyone who took part in the "American Revolution" removed. If you cannot see how they are the same thing, you are just as guilty of being blinded by your privilege.

Or I allow nuance into the conversation and don't let perfect be the enemy of good. But stay on that soapbox, Yale.