So Satchel Paige, who started pitching in the 1930s, pitched three innings at Kansas City against the Boston Red Sox, in 1965 !

He walked none, gave up no runs in three innings, and only one hit - a double by Carl Yastzemski:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jobmPs33fO8

He is listed as born on July 7, 1906 in Mobile, Alabama. So he was officially 59 years old.

If there is general progress in baseball talent over time, if Walter Johnson's fastball would not be wrinkle on some of those throwing today, if our players today are so much better by definition, why couldn't the Red Sox light up a guy one year younger than I am now like a Christmas tree?

Why, when in 1978 after not having thrown a pitch since his retirement in 1966, Sandy Koufax pitched batting practice to the Dodgers so they could prepare for facing the fire-throwing left Ron Guidry in the World Series, did the Dodgers' management have to go out to the mound and ask Sandy to please stop and leave the mound because he was striking everyone out and demoralizing the whole Dodgers lineup before the game?

We are supposed to believe that the wild swingers we have today at the plate would have had no trouble against wizards like Warren Spahn, or hurlers like Bob Feller, and that Ty Cobb, or for that matter Willie Mays would be blown away by the fastballers throwing in the late innings now (with their 100+ fastballs aided at least mathematically by the inflated radar gun measurements used today, making everyone faster than Nolan Ryan), with no chance.

I, instead, would hold that the human body remains paleolithic, and is the same body it has always been for 100,000 years, maybe 200,000. That if it is better nourished and better trained it is likely to perform better, but then how do we explain the talent from the Dominican Republic, where health conditions, diet - whether there is one or not, let alone nutrituional quality and calorie and protein intake - and living conditions and training equipment are a joke compared to what is available in any suburban New Jersey high school program?

What is the REASON for the quality improvement over time that is supposed to have happened:

the human body has changed?
diet is better?
flying in airplanes is better for you than traveling in trains?
better gym equipment means baseball players today could have won the Trojan War against Achilles and Agamemon? I am sure those guys did not know anything about exercise back then, the Spartans and Romans either.
watching TV in the offseason is better for you than working in a local restaurant or sports shop?

The only one that is very convincing is that diet is better today than in the past. But my example of the DR suggests that this may not be decisive: if it were, why were the Negro League players as good as MLB players, as their offseason games continually showed, or why at least did the Negro League players that joined MLB not tank for the first season or two until their diet and training improved?

As to training, maybe. We do know more and there is more seriousness in routine, but there are also I think more season ending injuries than there once were - do the trainers know what they are doing?

So, I remain unconvinced that we can assume anything about the quality of play other than that it has remained consistent on average and at the top levels since the point when Major League Baseball really reached Major League quality - maybe 1901, maybe a little later, allowing of course for the exclusion of the MLB-level talented players who could not play due to racism. That remains a legitimate cause for an asterisk and I continue to think it is the real reason there are no more .400 hitters or 30 game winners, etc.

Thank you for posting that radio clip of Satchel's last game. Dang, that was special. It is interesting that even back then the announcer noted that Satchel had done well the 1st time through the lineup but that the second time might be different .....

that's exactly why I think there won't be any more 400-hitters or Dimaggio-esque streaks - facing 3-4 different pitchers per game - regardless of quality (to a reasonable extent) makes those things harder to do. The familiarity - even without video - that pre-expansion players had worked to their advantage. Both over the course of a game and over a season.

As far as 30-game winners - well, that's a matter of health over stats. It could still be done, but not with pitch counts and the focus on health of guys you pay $30m per year.

Posted by BCBSMA on 7/14/2020 12:15:00 PM (view original):
that's exactly why I think there won't be any more 400-hitters or Dimaggio-esque streaks - facing 3-4 different pitchers per game - regardless of quality (to a reasonable extent) makes those things harder to do. The familiarity - even without video - that pre-expansion players had worked to their advantage. Both over the course of a game and over a season.

As far as 30-game winners - well, that's a matter of health over stats. It could still be done, but not with pitch counts and the focus on health of guys you pay $30m per year.

Slightly off-topic, but other unobtainable records;

Cy Young career wins 511.

Connie Mack wins as a manager: 3731.

These two are etched in stone.

Cal Ripken streak: 2632 games played.

Johnny Van der Meer: consecutive no-hit complete games: 2

Jack Chesbro: single season wins: 41

I'll give you Chesbro Steve, but I wouldn't bet against back to back no-nos. Pitchers can get unbelievably hot for a few starts. The others are impossibilities.

Except that to break Van der Meer's record, you'd need 3 consecutive no-hitters. :)

"Cherry picking quotes is not particularly persuasive. McGraw was obviously a great manager. It's not clear why his opinion on the subject matters more than any of dozens of other people from his era, not to mention thousands of other people who are very knowledgeable about the game. His inclusion of Frank Baker and (ridiculously) Hal Chase in the first sentence greatly diminishes any point he was trying to make."

"Cherry picking" implies that I carefully selected scarce positive assessments of Wagner's ability from among a large body of negative evaluations. Do those exist?

No, it means you picked a couple of quotes saying Wagner was the best player ever from among a large body of quotes that would nominate others.

This is a great series of posts on this subject. italyprof--- eloquent, observant, and so well informed as usual. Contrarian, always a pleasure to read your inputs. I add only this as I read through the pages: I was in Kansas City at the Paige game and witness history as well as greatness. I not only saw Paige pitch his 3+ innings (pretty sure Boston won the game) but I got to know the A's players, and they are my franchise to date. I met Ty Cobb when I was 11 at Emory University hospital but did not know of him at the time. My grandmother knew him for many years and introduced me at the hospital. A very sickly man at the time, he frightened me, though he was kind. I met Johnny Vander Meer several times in the mid-to-late 60's through the same great man who got me face time with the not so great Kansas City A's. I met a man who worked with the Kansas City Monarchs staff and met more greatness there and then. I guess the early and mid 60's was a great deal of good fortune for me, and to see these names again in this context brought it all back

Posted by stlyward on 7/20/2020 7:45:00 PM (view original):
This is a great series of posts on this subject. italyprof--- eloquent, observant, and so well informed as usual. Contrarian, always a pleasure to read your inputs. I add only this as I read through the pages: I was in Kansas City at the Paige game and witness history as well as greatness. I not only saw Paige pitch his 3+ innings (pretty sure Boston won the game) but I got to know the A's players, and they are my franchise to date. I met Ty Cobb when I was 11 at Emory University hospital but did not know of him at the time. My grandmother knew him for many years and introduced me at the hospital. A very sickly man at the time, he frightened me, though he was kind. I met Johnny Vander Meer several times in the mid-to-late 60's through the same great man who got me face time with the not so great Kansas City A's. I met a man who worked with the Kansas City Monarchs staff and met more greatness there and then. I guess the early and mid 60's was a great deal of good fortune for me, and to see these names again in this context brought it all back

You were in the park the last time Satchel Paige pitched in the majors AND you met Ty Coobb ?

Wow. Just wow. Add Johnny Vander Meer and you have hit an awful lot of baseball history. My compliments.

Off season was different for players of yesteryear. They needed to earn money so many of them worked second jobs. Today the millionaire pros can devote as much time for rest, recuperation and/ or strength and conditioning

https://www.splicetoday.com/sports/when-ballplayers-had-offseason-jobs

Benefits of being an old fart, Professore. The events are a little foggier now, but no less impactful. The man I knew who introduced me to some of the aged KC Monarchs shagged balls, cleaned the travel buses, tended to menial chores at the old ball park, and even rode with the team when they played in Council Bluffs, NE. Here is a recollection of S. Paige, taken from the memoirs of baseball historian Phil Dixon:

Paige’s illustrious career included a number of years with the Monarchs. Dixon said that as a star, Paige’s was allowed to drive himself to games. That led to the famous pitcher usually being tardy.

Dixon told of a event about Paige once being pulled over for speeding en route to a game. He went before the judge and was ordered to pay a $25 fine for speeding. Paige gave the judge $50. “The judge asked why he’d paid $50,” Dixon said. “Satchel told him, ‘because I’m passing through the county again tonight.’”

Posted by soxdoc on 7/17/2020 12:49:00 PM (view original):
Except that to break Van der Meer's record, you'd need 3 consecutive no-hitters. :)

As crazy as it may seem, in this day and age, 3 straight no-no's is more likely than anybody sniffing 511 wins. In 2015, Scherzer threw a no-hitter and a 1-hitter back-to-back, then threw another no-hitter later in the season. Meanwhile, Scherzer+Verlander+Kershaw COMBINED aren't that far off of Cy Young's win total!

Posted by tpistolas on 7/21/2020 3:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by soxdoc on 7/17/2020 12:49:00 PM (view original):
Except that to break Van der Meer's record, you'd need 3 consecutive no-hitters. :)

As crazy as it may seem, in this day and age, 3 straight no-no's is more likely than anybody sniffing 511 wins. In 2015, Scherzer threw a no-hitter and a 1-hitter back-to-back, then threw another no-hitter later in the season. Meanwhile, Scherzer+Verlander+Kershaw COMBINED aren't that far off of Cy Young's win total!

Right to my point tpistolas. 511 career wins isn't even conceivable. Works out to 25 seasons winning more than 20 games per season.

Maybe Sidd Finch...