Posted by johnsensing on 8/24/2020 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by beachhouse on 8/24/2020 5:00:00 PM (view original):
Beachhouse
4 months ago

Hi,
In Naismith World there is an owner that currently has two teams within 1K miles of each other. This season begins on April 30th.
ab90 has Colorado Mesa in D2 while abninety has Washington (MO) in D3
These schools are less than 1K miles apart; so he is in violation of the fairplay guidelines.
I feel as though this isn't the first instance.
Actually it isn't
In Iba he currently has teams less than 900 miles apart. It is again in violation of the rules.
ab90 has Concordia, St. Paul in D2 and abninety has Texas, Tyler in D3
Hopefully we as a community are given the chance to play this game with an even playing field moving forward. Especially those of us that are paying customers.
Thanks


WhatIfSports Admin
4 months ago

Hi,

We're aware of these accounts. In this case, the schools are 982 miles apart, which we are ok with. We're working with him to make sure he fixes violations in each world at the end of the current season.

Thanks.
Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.


Beachhouse
4 months ago

The other schools are less than 900 apart.
We either have rules as a community or we don't. I've been here since 2003, through a lot of issues and I've always been a paying customer. I also talk with a lot of guys in the HD community. Nobody is happy in regard to how this is being handled. It hasn't been addressed properly. I hear long time users who are starting to drop squads etc. and a lot of that has to do with the addressing of our concerns.
Thats just my 2 cents. There isn't a game without the community.


WhatIfSports Admin
4 months ago

He's been given the current season in each world to rectify the situation. That's our standard process for these violations when there is no evidence of cheating. He's not getting any special treatment.

Thanks
Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.

So was the situation rectified at the end of the seasons at issue? If so, what else should seble have done?

Seble obviously has the powers to completely delete guys who get recruited. He should have made the changes immediately; especially in the instance where the season hadn’t begun. He chose to let it go even though it was against the FairPlay guidelines. The rules only apply sometimes.

Posted by johnsensing on 8/24/2020 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by beachhouse on 8/24/2020 5:00:00 PM (view original):
Beachhouse
4 months ago

Hi,
In Naismith World there is an owner that currently has two teams within 1K miles of each other. This season begins on April 30th.
ab90 has Colorado Mesa in D2 while abninety has Washington (MO) in D3
These schools are less than 1K miles apart; so he is in violation of the fairplay guidelines.
I feel as though this isn't the first instance.
Actually it isn't
In Iba he currently has teams less than 900 miles apart. It is again in violation of the rules.
ab90 has Concordia, St. Paul in D2 and abninety has Texas, Tyler in D3
Hopefully we as a community are given the chance to play this game with an even playing field moving forward. Especially those of us that are paying customers.
Thanks


WhatIfSports Admin
4 months ago

Hi,

We're aware of these accounts. In this case, the schools are 982 miles apart, which we are ok with. We're working with him to make sure he fixes violations in each world at the end of the current season.

Thanks.
Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.


Beachhouse
4 months ago

The other schools are less than 900 apart.
We either have rules as a community or we don't. I've been here since 2003, through a lot of issues and I've always been a paying customer. I also talk with a lot of guys in the HD community. Nobody is happy in regard to how this is being handled. It hasn't been addressed properly. I hear long time users who are starting to drop squads etc. and a lot of that has to do with the addressing of our concerns.
Thats just my 2 cents. There isn't a game without the community.


WhatIfSports Admin
4 months ago

He's been given the current season in each world to rectify the situation. That's our standard process for these violations when there is no evidence of cheating. He's not getting any special treatment.

Thanks
Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.

So was the situation rectified at the end of the seasons at issue? If so, what else should seble have done?

This situation comes up all the time, which lies the problem... Nothing is actually being done, he's doing exactly what he wants (scout for a year) and then leaves. Allowing him to stay an entire season, just reinforces the behavior.

Keep in mind he'll 100% comply and leave... He'll also not recruit, and not schedule non-conf and no actually worry about players practice minutes (which 100% puts the next coach purposefully at a disadvantage)... Our (mainy my) problem with it, is that we're seeing complete bias, and all this other reportable stuff is not being taken care of.

Not just that, we've rolled back RS1, and allowed that team to ahve a full RS2 with full budget and all scholarships available... So not only did the team not impact RS1 (which has a huge impact on the world), but now it's going to have a HUGE impact on RS2 and completely change the world. Likely for AB90, when he applies, because he 100% made this post to try and take control of that team.

So he complains, gets exactly what he wants, while still doing the same grimy stuff that he's complaining about, so he can continue to play for free....

Feels like an old boys club to me.

Posted by topdogggbm on 8/24/2020 4:31:00 PM (view original):
One thing I think is important here, whether it's being mentioned directly or not, this is yet another derail ab90 thread.

The people here "loosely" defending ab90 (or the ones that feel what bulls did is improper), kcsundevil, Gillespie, johnsensing.... what do they all have in common? They are predominately D1 coaches.

They don't deal with ab90. They don't lose out on jobs because of him. They don't get his leftovers. None of that. So I don't blame them for not giving a crap. But there's plenty of the coaches in this thread that do. You D1 coaches don't realize how shady it is. I don't job hop so it don't impact me as much.

But for you D1ers, to help you understand, say a coach had A+ UCLA goes and wins a championship. Cool you don't have to deal with him cuz he's losing all those EEs right? Nope, same coach is at A+ UNC now. With a stud roster. And next season he's at A+ UK. Never dealing with whatever you have to deal with.

Again, if your established and happy where you're at in D1, cool, it may not "effect" you. It doesn't really affect me when he does it. I'm planted at my schools. But watching it unfold is just goofy to watch. Over and over.

The 3 of you I mentioned, I'm not necessarily saying you're defending him. I don't wanna speak for you. But what I am saying, is ab90 is the reason that so many AREN'T defending the situation at hand.

This is an ab90 problem. And if calling him out directly gets me reprimanded, I'll take my punishment like a man. I've talked to you in tickets, sitemails, and now forums seble.

I don't know what else to say to you. Please give us something besides side stepping responses. You want an A+ D2/D3 job? Have A+ loyalty and reputation. You leave schools before x seasons? Your rep and loyalty drops to a C.
problem solved! All that needs to be done, is implement a part of the game, that's already a part of the game!! How hard can this possibly be?!

Fair point that I haven't had to deal with AB since I'm a DI player. And to be clear, as long as what bulls did wasn't designed to screw AB over, I have no problem with it. Bulls was playing the game as designed. Where I draw the line is when people take actions specifically directed at one coach -- that doesn't seem "fair play" to me.

But I guess what I don't understand is why people are so worked up about AB jumping from team-to-team -- can't you just take on his old team once he leaves (that presumably was pretty good)? I get that it's goofy. But if he's trying to win three championships in a row with three different teams or some other similar goal, and he's not otherwise breaking the rules or fair play guidelines (i.e., switching teams wouldn't put him in violation of the 1000 mile rule), why is it wrong for him to do that? I'm not trolling, I'm sincerely asking.

From lilspike's post -- didn't want to repost the whole thing: "He'll [AB] also not recruit, and not schedule non-conf and no actually worry about players practice minutes (which 100% puts the next coach purposefully at a disadvantage)."

How is that different that what bulls did in recruiting lousy players? The next coach is "purposefully at a disadvantage." Either they're both OK, or they're both not OK. Myself, I'd keep trying on my teams until I switch, but I don't necessarily agree that failing to do so is a violation of fair play.

That said, if your point is that AB is being hypocritical in complaining about one of those things while doing the other, then I guess I agree with you.

Posted by johnsensing on 8/24/2020 5:16:00 PM (view original):
From lilspike's post -- didn't want to repost the whole thing: "He'll [AB] also not recruit, and not schedule non-conf and no actually worry about players practice minutes (which 100% puts the next coach purposefully at a disadvantage)."

How is that different that what bulls did in recruiting lousy players? The next coach is "purposefully at a disadvantage." Either they're both OK, or they're both not OK. Myself, I'd keep trying on my teams until I switch, but I don't necessarily agree that failing to do so is a violation of fair play.

That said, if your point is that AB is being hypocritical in complaining about one of those things while doing the other, then I guess I agree with you.

My entire point is that AB does this almost every single season, and gets away with it... There's zero consistency!

Their decision to rollback the recruits, and adjust before the season is not consistent with how they've treated ABs fouls, and not at all with how they deal with problems as a whole. He's a vet, and likely barely pays for seasons, but God forbid if he complains! SOmething has to be done right away, and appease him, so he can continue to do the same thing?

It's disgusting... You're absolutely right, it's either right or wrong, and I want consistency.

I'll add to this, I have a few friends interested, that are COMPLETELY deterred by the fact they could be paying for 5-10 packs to start a career, while Vets do this kind of stuff and play for free each year... I havent played HD in years (until starting recently) I can say that I'm ****** by ABs smug attitude, and his bending of the rules, only to point fingers to get his way. It's appalling

It's a traveshamockery.

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/24/2020 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 8/24/2020 1:39:00 PM (view original):
Really doesn’t have much impact on anyone, except the heavy-handed intimidation email. But this is a really dumb interpretation of “fair play.”

with the caveat that i still don't know for sure what happened (because sports's account sounds like something different; i'm guessing he just didn't understand the original complaint but also he's a good guy and a trusted one so i'd like to hear from him before assuming) -

why do you think its a dumb interpretation of fair play? i am not a fan of making a fuss out of this stuff but i do think its appropriate for 'no intentional sabotage' to be part of fair play. there used to be issues where coaches would throw games to each other to help get more teams in the NT for more NT bonus money, or whatever else. maybe you throw this game for me this year when i need it and down the line i throw a game to you if you need it. you could sort of broaden collusion to cover that case, but generally speaking, intentionally throwing *anything* seems problematic to me. i'm curious if you see it differently.

i do think it catches cases where a coach is ****** and kinda goes off by blowing his team up, which if rare i would think would be better tolerated than prohibited - and also, this has caught up folks who were doing an experiment - like running the wrong off/def for a while - and folks have gotten warned for that. so its not perfect... i kinda look at 'no sucking on purpose' as a bit of a catch-all that should be applied judiciously, especially because of how important intent (which is always nebulous) is in making the determination about rule breaking or not. seble does know this though, its not like sports is one thrown game away from losing his account or anything along those lines (if you were to take the sitemail literally).

It’s a dumb interpretation, because to violate “fair play” you have to show harm done. No one is harmed by a D3 team signing D3 recruits. If “sabotage” is going to be the argument, you need to prove it *is* sabotage (intentionally making this team bad for some nefarious purpose) first of all, and then show us who benefits from it, and who was harmed by it. I agree with some others here, SB’s account brings it into more of a gray area than before, but it’s still in the category of exploiting a loophole at this point, and not a violation of fair play guidelines or “ethics” - unless you can show specific harm.

FWIW, coaches could do this (signing players at levels below what they might reasonably be able to get) for any number of valid reasons that have nothing to do with gaining unfair advantages over their competitors. Trentonjoe did an experiment a few years ago to see how far he could take a team signing only D3 recruits. I don’t recall him being threatened with a ban. Further, teams get left in the same condition through an apparently valid gameplay choice - going all in on a bunch of recruits well *above* its level - all the time. The effect is mostly the same, a lost recruiting class the hypothetical next guy will have to clean up.

Again, no real effect here on anyone, so not a big deal at this point. But if this is going to be an issue in the future, as with all issues around questions of fair play, if an action is going to be considered “out of bounds” it should be made structurally impossible; if that just can’t be done, then seble needs to be really clear and consistent about defining the behavior that will be prohibited, and the punishment for it, and frankly relying on the community to police it is not going to cut it.

Posted by johnsensing on 8/24/2020 5:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 8/24/2020 4:31:00 PM (view original):
One thing I think is important here, whether it's being mentioned directly or not, this is yet another derail ab90 thread.

The people here "loosely" defending ab90 (or the ones that feel what bulls did is improper), kcsundevil, Gillespie, johnsensing.... what do they all have in common? They are predominately D1 coaches.

They don't deal with ab90. They don't lose out on jobs because of him. They don't get his leftovers. None of that. So I don't blame them for not giving a crap. But there's plenty of the coaches in this thread that do. You D1 coaches don't realize how shady it is. I don't job hop so it don't impact me as much.

But for you D1ers, to help you understand, say a coach had A+ UCLA goes and wins a championship. Cool you don't have to deal with him cuz he's losing all those EEs right? Nope, same coach is at A+ UNC now. With a stud roster. And next season he's at A+ UK. Never dealing with whatever you have to deal with.

Again, if your established and happy where you're at in D1, cool, it may not "effect" you. It doesn't really affect me when he does it. I'm planted at my schools. But watching it unfold is just goofy to watch. Over and over.

The 3 of you I mentioned, I'm not necessarily saying you're defending him. I don't wanna speak for you. But what I am saying, is ab90 is the reason that so many AREN'T defending the situation at hand.

This is an ab90 problem. And if calling him out directly gets me reprimanded, I'll take my punishment like a man. I've talked to you in tickets, sitemails, and now forums seble.

I don't know what else to say to you. Please give us something besides side stepping responses. You want an A+ D2/D3 job? Have A+ loyalty and reputation. You leave schools before x seasons? Your rep and loyalty drops to a C.
problem solved! All that needs to be done, is implement a part of the game, that's already a part of the game!! How hard can this possibly be?!

Fair point that I haven't had to deal with AB since I'm a DI player. And to be clear, as long as what bulls did wasn't designed to screw AB over, I have no problem with it. Bulls was playing the game as designed. Where I draw the line is when people take actions specifically directed at one coach -- that doesn't seem "fair play" to me.

But I guess what I don't understand is why people are so worked up about AB jumping from team-to-team -- can't you just take on his old team once he leaves (that presumably was pretty good)? I get that it's goofy. But if he's trying to win three championships in a row with three different teams or some other similar goal, and he's not otherwise breaking the rules or fair play guidelines (i.e., switching teams wouldn't put him in violation of the 1000 mile rule), why is it wrong for him to do that? I'm not trolling, I'm sincerely asking.

I did not purposely target ab. If I did I would've owned up to it (and not been mad at punishment because its directly stated in the rule book) and not revealed the strategy and reason I did what I did.

I think the reason ab has gone quiet is because he's done the following things:

1. Trash teams by not recruiting, setting practice plan, non-conf
2. Recruited players for his new job that he was on for his old job (don't have evidence of this, so it is alleged, but the amount of times he's switched jobs leads me to conclude this.

What people are saying is that ab does not get reprecussions for doing these things, especially #1 as that is what he called me out for and that is what I got warned for.

John,

Since loyalty isn’t applied to the jobs process, he can go to an A+ school primed to win, more often than not he stays one season, doesn’t recruit and then goes on to the next team. He makes the teams uncoachable after he leaves and because each single season stop is successful, he can pretty much get any team he wants. He stays for 1-4 seasons max. It’s all dependant on whether the coach before him left him usable sophomores and juniors so that he can try and win with them.

He does recruit, but it’s always from an A+ advantage.

Posted by shoe3 on 8/24/2020 5:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/24/2020 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 8/24/2020 1:39:00 PM (view original):
Really doesn’t have much impact on anyone, except the heavy-handed intimidation email. But this is a really dumb interpretation of “fair play.”

with the caveat that i still don't know for sure what happened (because sports's account sounds like something different; i'm guessing he just didn't understand the original complaint but also he's a good guy and a trusted one so i'd like to hear from him before assuming) -

why do you think its a dumb interpretation of fair play? i am not a fan of making a fuss out of this stuff but i do think its appropriate for 'no intentional sabotage' to be part of fair play. there used to be issues where coaches would throw games to each other to help get more teams in the NT for more NT bonus money, or whatever else. maybe you throw this game for me this year when i need it and down the line i throw a game to you if you need it. you could sort of broaden collusion to cover that case, but generally speaking, intentionally throwing *anything* seems problematic to me. i'm curious if you see it differently.

i do think it catches cases where a coach is ****** and kinda goes off by blowing his team up, which if rare i would think would be better tolerated than prohibited - and also, this has caught up folks who were doing an experiment - like running the wrong off/def for a while - and folks have gotten warned for that. so its not perfect... i kinda look at 'no sucking on purpose' as a bit of a catch-all that should be applied judiciously, especially because of how important intent (which is always nebulous) is in making the determination about rule breaking or not. seble does know this though, its not like sports is one thrown game away from losing his account or anything along those lines (if you were to take the sitemail literally).

It’s a dumb interpretation, because to violate “fair play” you have to show harm done. No one is harmed by a D3 team signing D3 recruits. If “sabotage” is going to be the argument, you need to prove it *is* sabotage (intentionally making this team bad for some nefarious purpose) first of all, and then show us who benefits from it, and who was harmed by it. I agree with some others here, SB’s account brings it into more of a gray area than before, but it’s still in the category of exploiting a loophole at this point, and not a violation of fair play guidelines or “ethics” - unless you can show specific harm.

FWIW, coaches could do this (signing players at levels below what they might reasonably be able to get) for any number of valid reasons that have nothing to do with gaining unfair advantages over their competitors. Trentonjoe did an experiment a few years ago to see how far he could take a team signing only D3 recruits. I don’t recall him being threatened with a ban. Further, teams get left in the same condition through an apparently valid gameplay choice - going all in on a bunch of recruits well *above* its level - all the time. The effect is mostly the same, a lost recruiting class the hypothetical next guy will have to clean up.

Again, no real effect here on anyone, so not a big deal at this point. But if this is going to be an issue in the future, as with all issues around questions of fair play, if an action is going to be considered “out of bounds” it should be made structurally impossible; if that just can’t be done, then seble needs to be really clear and consistent about defining the behavior that will be prohibited, and the punishment for it, and frankly relying on the community to police it is not going to cut it.

If this was brought up in beta and nothing was done about it, I think what I did is 100% fair play. I mean this situation happens in rl.

"ab90 - ready for challenge at St. Leo - named as new head coach. Officials at Post shocked by departure."

No sure how officials could be shocked by that.

Posted by cbriese on 8/24/2020 5:40:00 PM (view original):
Good grief. Nine pages of whining.

ab90 and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum in team selection - I factor in the number of years the teams has been coached by Sim AI (50 years or more is preferred) - but I have zero issue with the way he bounces from team to team like a WIS version of Tom Penders. I do have an issue with the crybabies who complain that his teams are only 982 miles apart.

sportsbulls went deep into the gray area of fair play by his recruiting and recruit signing shenanigans. I wouldn't complain about it, but it will make it sweeter when I beat him in an NT matchup.

seble makes an appearance with a cogent, well thought out explanation. The rest, well, the rest is just whining. Grow up.

You either have rules or you don’t. If you’re willing to enforce them for some, they need to be enforced for all. That’s my point.

Posted by cbriese on 8/24/2020 5:43:00 PM (view original):
Good grief. Nine pages of whining.

ab90 and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum in team selection - I factor in the number of years the teams has been coached by Sim AI (50 years or more is preferred) - but I have zero issue with the way he bounces from team to team like a WIS version of Larry Brown. I do have an issue with the crybabies who complain that his teams are only 982 miles apart.

sportsbulls went deep into the gray area of fair play by his recruiting and recruit signing shenanigans. I wouldn't complain about it, but it will make it sweeter when I beat him in an NT matchup.

seble makes an appearance with a cogent, well thought out explanation. The rest, well, the rest is just whining. Grow up.

Lol good luck beating Lincoln. Wanna hop on my non conf though? We can come to your place. I'll play my bench too