Pros and cons. What are the main factors you use to decide?

In my last sim, I double teamed the hot scorer/ the only real perimeter shooter on the team. It burned me because it left the other guard open for big scoring. The other guard is a freshman and performed a lot better than normal so it seems unlucky (bad sim).

What are the main factors you use to determine doubleteam?

I think most questions asked on the forums are pretty cut and dry answers. But I still feel like this is one of the better questions that has so many layers to look at. And so many answers from different coaches with different mindsets

Do you double team the elite scorer? Do you double team the secondary scorer and let the main man get his? Do you double the crappy BH? Crappy PAS? Highest rated PER guy? Highest rated LP guy? Double the guy that is shooting way too much compared to his talent numbers? Lots of possibilities and thought processes here.

I agree a lot unknown on this one, didn't do anything for me last night against this player Earl Marshall. Has superior ath/spd which is difficult to double but the BH/PA is low for a guard. In the past I doubled low PA guards with decent distro or if the team had 1 PER or 1 LP only I'd double them and then set the team def to a higher +/- setting based on 3s attempted. After Earl Marshall still carved me up and hit his first 4 threes of the season though, I'm back to scratching my head a little bit.

Posted by topdogggbm on 10/28/2020 5:13:00 AM (view original):
I think most questions asked on the forums are pretty cut and dry answers. But I still feel like this is one of the better questions that has so many layers to look at. And so many answers from different coaches with different mindsets

Do you double team the elite scorer? Do you double team the secondary scorer and let the main man get his? Do you double the crappy BH? Crappy PAS? Highest rated PER guy? Highest rated LP guy? Double the guy that is shooting way too much compared to his talent numbers? Lots of possibilities and thought processes here.

Yes...

Posted by mullycj on 10/28/2020 10:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 10/28/2020 5:13:00 AM (view original):
I think most questions asked on the forums are pretty cut and dry answers. But I still feel like this is one of the better questions that has so many layers to look at. And so many answers from different coaches with different mindsets

Do you double team the elite scorer? Do you double team the secondary scorer and let the main man get his? Do you double the crappy BH? Crappy PAS? Highest rated PER guy? Highest rated LP guy? Double the guy that is shooting way too much compared to his talent numbers? Lots of possibilities and thought processes here.

Yes...

That sounds like a press team!

or an awfully lot of double teams in one game

The big thing is if your opponent sees it coming, it can backfire, so you don’t want to be too predictable. I like to have the option, but I try not to use it a whole lot.

Can you elaborate? I don’t think it matters if you know or not.

Im by no means an excellent coach but here is my general thought process for doubling.

First, I never "always" double two players that are on the court at the same time. Sometimes coaches will have one big time PER starter and another on Bench and generally only sub for each other. In this instance I may double both but if there is a high likelihood theyre on the court at the same time for any significant amount, I dont. (I believe some coaches will "always" double two players generally with the caveat they dont play next to each other)

Also, I really dont like the double two guys "if leading scorer" approach. In fact I dont use If leading scorer *almost* ever.

Then I look at volume, generally I use the shorthand OFF% in the player gameplan page. I dont have a cutoff per se but am generally looking for something around 18% or above, give or take and relative to teammates. Next I'll look for efficiency, Point per Possession (efficiency), Points per Minute (volume...kept on a spreadsheet I use) if the high volume guy is also very efficient, and just as important, significantly more efficiency than his teammates (or most of them) hes probably getting a double.

I also make exceptions where the guys is, say the 2nd or 3rd scorer but only perimeter threat I may double.

I compare quality of defender (man) or group (zone), If I feel I can defend him well without it, I dont.

Against FB team especially, I look at what % of their points come from the FT line, I'll admit though, I get lazy and skip this step often. But if a lot of his points are from the stripe, Im less likely to double.

Finally, the Key for me is, If I "always" double a player, I essentially do a quick recalc of the teams 3pt attempt rate and adjust team defense without that players attempts in both numerator and denominator. Ex: If 40% of a teams shots are 3s I may play +1 or +2, but if i decide to double a player and that number drops to 25%, Id use a double, and -1 or -2. On occasion I get very extreme with this as well (double, -5) etc.

It sounds like a lot but when life gets in the way I can generally gameplan in like 5 min. Hope this helps, interested in others thoughts as well.

Posted by duece112 on 10/29/2020 2:27:00 AM (view original):
Im by no means an excellent coach but here is my general thought process for doubling.

First, I never "always" double two players that are on the court at the same time. Sometimes coaches will have one big time PER starter and another on Bench and generally only sub for each other. In this instance I may double both but if there is a high likelihood theyre on the court at the same time for any significant amount, I dont. (I believe some coaches will "always" double two players generally with the caveat they dont play next to each other)

Also, I really dont like the double two guys "if leading scorer" approach. In fact I dont use If leading scorer *almost* ever.

Then I look at volume, generally I use the shorthand OFF% in the player gameplan page. I dont have a cutoff per se but am generally looking for something around 18% or above, give or take and relative to teammates. Next I'll look for efficiency, Point per Possession (efficiency), Points per Minute (volume...kept on a spreadsheet I use) if the high volume guy is also very efficient, and just as important, significantly more efficiency than his teammates (or most of them) hes probably getting a double.

I also make exceptions where the guys is, say the 2nd or 3rd scorer but only perimeter threat I may double.

I compare quality of defender (man) or group (zone), If I feel I can defend him well without it, I dont.

Against FB team especially, I look at what % of their points come from the FT line, I'll admit though, I get lazy and skip this step often. But if a lot of his points are from the stripe, Im less likely to double.

Finally, the Key for me is, If I "always" double a player, I essentially do a quick recalc of the teams 3pt attempt rate and adjust team defense without that players attempts in both numerator and denominator. Ex: If 40% of a teams shots are 3s I may play +1 or +2, but if i decide to double a player and that number drops to 25%, Id use a double, and -1 or -2. On occasion I get very extreme with this as well (double, -5) etc.

It sounds like a lot but when life gets in the way I can generally gameplan in like 5 min. Hope this helps, interested in others thoughts as well.

One thing to keep in mind here too, where I feel some have the wrong mindset...... this game is about numbers vs numbers. The only thing that affects the "imaginary floor spacing" is your +/- defensive placement that we set for each game.

So for example, if you run a 2-3 zone, and double team the SG "always", that doesn't mean the opposing PG is standing there wide open on every single possession, taking all uncontested shots. All that your set up does is throw harder numbers at one player (the SG). The ways this double team would affect the opposing PG are minimal.

I had trouble grasping this when I first started HD. Thinking that if I had PFs and Cs that could shoot 3s with high PER, that it would "draw the defending bigs out to the 3pt line to defend, creating huge driving lanes for my athletic guards". But that's not the case. The shooting bigs just shoot. The end

Posted by mullycj on 10/29/2020 12:00:00 AM (view original):
Can you elaborate? I don’t think it matters if you know or not.

If I am pretty sure you’re going to doubleteam, I can play with distribution to get other guys looks. Since the doubleteam basically functions to decrease one player’s FG% odds, and increase other players’ FG% odds, as long as my distribution isn’t set to force it to the guy who is being doubleteamed, I’m happy. If you end up double teaming a guy who goes 2-5 while the rest of the team shoots 17-30 while he’s on the floor, you’re probably less happy.

This is where I think your understanding of the impact of double teaming is wrong (and why I asked the question).
The biggest thing DT does is reduce the distribution of the doubled player (by a lot).
Second, there is a SMALL decrease to his shooting % and a SMALL increase to team mates shooting %.

As a coach, by reducing the distribution of the player you think they are going to double you are actually doing what your opponent wants you to do, which is take the ball out of your best player's hands.

Those are just my thoughts and why its good to have balanced scoring. But if you dont, there isnt much you can do about it.

Posted by mullycj on 10/29/2020 11:12:00 AM (view original):
This is where I think your understanding of the impact of double teaming is wrong (and why I asked the question).
The biggest thing DT does is reduce the distribution of the doubled player (by a lot).
Second, there is a SMALL decrease to his shooting % and a SMALL increase to team mates shooting %.

As a coach, by reducing the distribution of the player you think they are going to double you are actually doing what your opponent wants you to do, which is take the ball out of your best player's hands.

Those are just my thoughts and why its good to have balanced scoring. But if you dont, there isnt much you can do about it.

I agree reducing distribution is one aspect of doubleteaming, but I don’t think it’s the biggest consideration. The success of a doubleteam depends on a number of factors, including the IQ of players involved, which the defense can’t control. The defense also can’t control where the offense sets distribution. In other words, from a defensive standpoint, I can’t count on this doubleteam successfully keeping the ball away from this scoring option. What I can count on is making that scorer less effective, to some degree. That will be true regardless of how high or low my opponent sets his distribution.

Of course balanced scoring is good, for lots of reasons. But having a great scorer is also good. Moving that scorer from, say, 40% of shots on the floor to 33% of shots on the floor is not exactly “taking the ball out of his hands.”

I guess the answer partly depends on the team. My Minnesota rebuild had one good scorer. I KNEW he would be double teamed but I wasnt about to move distribution to guys I really dont want shooting the ball much. Thats where Im coming from on the opinion.

Posted by mullycj on 10/29/2020 12:29:00 PM (view original):
I guess the answer partly depends on the team. My Minnesota rebuild had one good scorer. I KNEW he would be double teamed but I wasnt about to move distribution to guys I really dont want shooting the ball much. Thats where Im coming from on the opinion.

Shouldn't you be out studying more ways to beat the profanity filter?

I definitely recommend putting multiple starters on always for most things.