Posted by jpevans31 on 11/8/2020 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by 24kpyrite on 11/8/2020 1:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jpevans31 on 11/8/2020 1:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jpevans31 on 11/7/2020 11:37:00 PM (view original):
PG - Collison/ Terrell
SG - Pippen/ T-Mac/ Bowen
SF - Bobby Jones/ Nance Jr
PF - Millsap/ Mark West/ Larry Smith
C - Whiteside/ Oliver Miller

There are some issues, but defense shouldn't be one.

Just because I'm kinda excited by it, these are the average Def using all 5 seasons of my guys. I won't be using Oliver during his 50Def season, so his average bumps up, and I'll only be using one of Nance's bad (42) seasons. I did it off the top of my head, so I didn't bother doing Larry Smith's avg. He's my 12th-man in every league, and it's somewhere in the 30s.

Hassan-83

Oliver-73

Bobby-86

Pippen-91

Darren-56

Millsap-68

Bowen-88

Nance Jr-49

T-Mac-80

Terrell-73

West-64

Is this team going to be able to rebound the missed attempts?

T-Mac and Pippen at SG. Bobby, Nance Jr and Millsap at SF. Hassan... So, maybe, maybe not.

Ok, I thought it might run into trouble with Millsap at PF

Posted by robusk on 11/8/2020 2:58:00 PM (view original):
Man I have been trying to go out of my way to engage you since the last time you said you didn’t feel included. Crazed responses to innocent attempts to engage make it less appealing though.

Yeah, you did one time send me an SM asking about military service, which was cool of you. You did send me 1 SM, and 1 follow-up to my response. Although you didn't respond to my 2nd SM, my goofy little story about Hawaii/ Bishop Magic Don Juan, it was cool that you reached out. I don't know if you liked that story, didn't dig the use of alcohol, or just didn't really read it, but it was cool you sent something. Please don't pluralize it with "been trying," but you did approach me once. So, we each sent a couple SMs of talk before I guess you decided we were done. I thought if you got a tiny kick out of my HI story, I've got plenty of funnier stories, like "getting drunk/ ate mushrooms in one country/state, bars closed/passed out/strong trip, woke up in another country/state with people I don't know. And then it got crazy," type of stories. I've got good stories that don't involve drugs/alcohol, if that's not your bag, but most of the best have 'em. Or, I thought you'd respond with your own little tale. But, you didn't. That's cool, you gave it a go. And that's more than pretty much everyone else. Thanks for that.

Maybe I need to take a breather, like you said. I've only been getting little negative comments about my team posts, and yours looked exactly like many others' "see, mine is better," posts that I've seen on WiS. Some comment by you would've helped for insight into if you were trying to say anything at all, but maybe I took it wrong. It wasn't a "crazed" response, but it was a frustrated one. I haven't gotten constructive/conversational responses to any posts about any of my teams in a while, so I should've remembered that and just not posted. That's on me.
I'm not taking any of this to heart, it's just a frustration while I'm logged on here. I don't dislike anyone here, because I don't know anyone here. (although there's one I don't trust, he seems amiable enough). The newer guys don't want to speak up because they don't want to turn anyone off, the people that have been here a while are so used to it that they either never post, or they're content with the friends they'd already made. It's cool, I'm done taking up anyone's time that has read these. Back to normal, GL to all.

Posted by jpevans31 on 11/7/2020 11:37:00 PM (view original):
PG - Collison/ Terrell
SG - Pippen/ T-Mac/ Bowen
SF - Bobby Jones/ Nance Jr
PF - Millsap/ Mark West/ Larry Smith
C - Whiteside/ Oliver Miller

There are some issues, but defense shouldn't be one.

Defense will be good. I think I said this before, but I foresee offensive and rebounding issues for this team. You mentioned wanting constructive criticism/guidance, so here is my attempt at that:

• The two simplest, most important stats for a good offense in draft leagues like this are a good usage% and high efg%. Those aren't the only factors - turnovers, assists, and FT% will all play some role, as will rebounding (which largely determines who gets the most shots).
• There's nothing I can say on usage that hasn't been said by ash in the main simleague forum. The bottom line is you need to keep enough usage "points" on the floor (read ash's guidance on that) while keeping a sufficient collective team usage on the floor (a minimum of 100%, but in my experience usually 105-110% is the sweet spot).
• efg% is the starting point for scoring points, because it's the best measure of how many points a team is likely to generate per shot. A "good" team efg% is probably somewhere in the 53-56% range. Above that you could classify as "great." Below that, you can still have a good team, but you would need to be very good in other areas (defense, turnovers/fouls, assists, etc).
• Based on a quick look, I think most of your teams are going to struggle to have a good efg% and/or usg% on the floor. Brandon has one season in which he's a good PG for this league; the others have well below average efg%. Collison has better efg% but I'm not sure you have enough usage when he's on the floor. At the 2, Pippen sometimes has the usage of a #1 scorer, but his best seasons have tier 3 usage (see ash's guide for that) and his efg% is generally good, rarely great. TMac has plenty of usage, but often at the cost of efficiency. And Bowen doesn't really work as a backup behind them, because usage would plummet when he's on the floor.
• You do have some other guys - Jones, Whiteside, West, Miller - who have excellent efg%. But they are generally lower usage guys, and none of them shoot any threes. You're going to see a lot of -1 and -2 defense due to lack of threes, which means those guys will probably not perform as well as you hope.
• The combination of having not enough usage at times, mediocre efg% from your highest usage scorers, and not enough threes is going to make it hard for your offense to be effective. And your assists are probably average at best, so not much boost there.
• This will be compounded by what I think will be below-average rebounding. Whiteside is a great rebounder and you should be OK when he's in. But he will only play a little more than half the minutes, at most, across five leagues. Miller is a very light rebounder for a 5; Millsap and West are a little light for a 4. (Smith is better, but you said he wouldn't be playing much.) Pippen/T-Mac and Jones help make up for that some, but your PGs don't contribute much. When Whiteside is out, it looks to me like most of your lineups will be operating somewhere in the range of 75% defensive rebounding%, which is going to leave you at a deficit versus most teams.

With all that said: I could see you ending up with 2-3 pretty good teams, depending on how you pair your guys up, in the seasons when Whiteside plays a good percentage of the minutes. But I think you'll have at least a couple teams that struggle pretty badly on the offensive end.

Posted by dBKC on 11/8/2020 3:10:00 PM (view original):
Whoa I hope my post isn’t being included in that, I’m at work and just wanted to see what mine looked like but didn’t have time to write anything along side it or even calculate more than 4 of my guys (hence the guesstimation on most of them). I also hope that me ending my message with the thing about not even wanting to think about what Mike Miller or Dirk’s looks like was enough to let you know I wasn’t trying to one up anyone.

I know you didn’t directly say that, but just referring to the “posting numbers with no comments is an indirect way to say (someone one upped you)” Not my intention.

Not at all, dBKC. I said quoting someone's post and just replying with #s is something I've seen used as a way to do one-up while not actually having any conversation.

Or for a simpler commentary: the SIM often does not reflect real life very well. One way in which it does: Scottie Pippen is much better as an elite second banana than as the lead scorer for a team. I've rarely seen a team built around Pippen as the #1 scorer do well, and think yours will have the same issue.

Posted by jpevans31 on 11/8/2020 4:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 11/8/2020 3:10:00 PM (view original):
Whoa I hope my post isn’t being included in that, I’m at work and just wanted to see what mine looked like but didn’t have time to write anything along side it or even calculate more than 4 of my guys (hence the guesstimation on most of them). I also hope that me ending my message with the thing about not even wanting to think about what Mike Miller or Dirk’s looks like was enough to let you know I wasn’t trying to one up anyone.

I know you didn’t directly say that, but just referring to the “posting numbers with no comments is an indirect way to say (someone one upped you)” Not my intention.

Not at all, dBKC. I said quoting someone's post and just replying with #s is something I've seen used as a way to do one-up while not actually having any conversation.

I got that, just making sure with all of the references to cliques and stuff. All good, just making sure my post wasn’t misconstrued

Posted by jpevans31 on 11/8/2020 4:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 11/8/2020 2:58:00 PM (view original):
Man I have been trying to go out of my way to engage you since the last time you said you didn’t feel included. Crazed responses to innocent attempts to engage make it less appealing though.

Yeah, you did one time send me an SM asking about military service, which was cool of you. You did send me 1 SM, and 1 follow-up to my response. Although you didn't respond to my 2nd SM, my goofy little story about Hawaii/ Bishop Magic Don Juan, it was cool that you reached out. I don't know if you liked that story, didn't dig the use of alcohol, or just didn't really read it, but it was cool you sent something. Please don't pluralize it with "been trying," but you did approach me once. So, we each sent a couple SMs of talk before I guess you decided we were done. I thought if you got a tiny kick out of my HI story, I've got plenty of funnier stories, like "getting drunk/ ate mushrooms in one country/state, bars closed/passed out/strong trip, woke up in another country/state with people I don't know. And then it got crazy," type of stories. I've got good stories that don't involve drugs/alcohol, if that's not your bag, but most of the best have 'em. Or, I thought you'd respond with your own little tale. But, you didn't. That's cool, you gave it a go. And that's more than pretty much everyone else. Thanks for that.

Maybe I need to take a breather, like you said. I've only been getting little negative comments about my team posts, and yours looked exactly like many others' "see, mine is better," posts that I've seen on WiS. Some comment by you would've helped for insight into if you were trying to say anything at all, but maybe I took it wrong. It wasn't a "crazed" response, but it was a frustrated one. I haven't gotten constructive/conversational responses to any posts about any of my teams in a while, so I should've remembered that and just not posted. That's on me.
I'm not taking any of this to heart, it's just a frustration while I'm logged on here. I don't dislike anyone here, because I don't know anyone here. (although there's one I don't trust, he seems amiable enough). The newer guys don't want to speak up because they don't want to turn anyone off, the people that have been here a while are so used to it that they either never post, or they're content with the friends they'd already made. It's cool, I'm done taking up anyone's time that has read these. Back to normal, GL to all.

Jp
I feel ya - in terms of I'm an outsider and KNOW for certain that I don't have same experience as most here - I've never even done an ODL. I'm not crazy abut the cost of doing business in this league but I do really enjoy the process b/c I think it challenges even the most advanced players (observation). I, like I'm sure you do have put a great deal of time and effort into this process and would love to see it pay off - even if that is with some affirmation on the dialogue that goes on. I also can understand that's its frustrating when the feedback turns negative.
I've committed to this because I find the process of building a basketball team fascinating as you stated - many here have it mastered - I do not. But I do think I've gotten better each season in my attempt. I doubt MY squad will be ready to compete this season again - maybe yours will! But I get where you're coming from though.
I will say that I think I've been pretty up front in my naivete - heck I basically had to beg my way into this league. I know I'm not the best but I did make the playoffs in 4 of 5 the first season and looking back - I had NO idea what I was doing!! But I think even the most veteran owners have been forced to make adjustments in this format - which to me makes it way more enjoyable than the ODL format. Regardless, though I've been rightfully criticized by the vets, I have also found that guys like ben, ash etc. have been informative and given honest opinion when asked - even offering insight to improve mid-league/draft. Like you said - I welcome the constructive criticism to get better...

So i get ya - but I also see both sides. Just offering my opinion as a newbie who will prolly finish in bottom half again and have to find other ways to pay the electric bill!!!

Posted by tarheel1991 on 11/8/2020 4:31:00 PM (view original):
Or for a simpler commentary: the SIM often does not reflect real life very well. One way in which it does: Scottie Pippen is much better as an elite second banana than as the lead scorer for a team. I've rarely seen a team built around Pippen as the #1 scorer do well, and think yours will have the same issue.

That's probably my main concern. Team Usg and eFG% aren't as big deal in my mind. Collison averages about 20% across worlds. Millsap is 20-26, Hassan 20-23. T-Mac is high as hell, and except for his 02-03 will get be getting limited Scottie-backup minutes. O and West are usually both 13-16, but both have a season or 2 approaching 20. I've staggered all rotations to where it should be 110-98% always, and the time below 102 is minimal.
And, FG%... T-Mac and Terrell in 4/5 seasons are bad, but not utterly horrible. They're both in limited bench modes most seasons. Scottie and Millsap are both always decent, not great, but never an anchor. Collison is decent-good. Now, look at the eFG%s of the seasons I'll be using of guys like:
Hassan - 55.7, 62.1, 62.4, 60.5, 57.1
West - 61.4, 64.7, 55.1, 65.3, 62.5
Oliver - 60.9, 52.6, 58.8, 55.5
Nance - 58.4, 55.4, 59.6
Bobby - 55.9, 57, 57.8, 60.4, 58.1
Bowen - 57.1
Given that T-Mac/Terrell's weaker eFG% seasons will be low minutes, I think these guys can make up for it some. Edit: Just read the thing about 3s. I don't have any volume 3 guys, but Pip, Terrell, Collison, Nance, Millsap, Bowen, T-Mac all have years with a decent amount, and importantly, good 3pt%. If I mix and match well, I might be alright.
Reb% might hurt sometimes, but Pip/T-Mac (Bowen with 1 backup season) at SG, and Bobby/Nance (with some Millsap/ T-Mac's 02-03) at SF and Hassan could be ok. The main issue is if I lined up my weaker West/Oliver Reb seasons correctly to cover as much as possible. Both are decent ORebs, but both have weak/decent DReb seasons.
One little thing about IRL, since I'm a Pippen fan: 93-94, how did Scottie fare as the lead-dog over a full season? Yes, Scottie was best as Ultra-Robin, but in the right system, he did all-right. His best teammates were Horace, young-Kukoc and about-washed-Cartwright, and he almost made the Finals.

I’ve largely tried to refrain from commentary here because it seems that someone always gets offended by well meaning words. The limited stuff I’ve said, I’ve tried to be extra nice instead of helpful.

I’m not going to start now. I will say, however, that imagining that people are slighting your team and becoming very defensive about it usually means one of two things:

1) your team is bad by conventional wisdom
2) those people don’t see what you see

Prove it on the court. If it turns out it was in fact choice number 1, maybe revisit your decisions and how you reacted to commentary.

Also remember, every league has its bottom. Last year, it was Albi. This year, it looks pretty obvious to me, but I’m done with evals in this league until I feel like I prove myself here. Unless you finished in the top 3 or 5 both previous seasons, maybe you should take the same approach. And by you I mean everyone.

Despite that, there has been some solid criticism brought forth. It’s up to each individual to determine the extent they listen to said criticism.

Also the fact that the draft thread is 13 pages longer than the commentary thread reflects the drama fatigue. I’d be willing to bet that taking the conversation outside of the drama would result in 70+ pages full of insight, wisdom, and gentle ribbing.

Posted by ashamael on 11/8/2020 5:21:00 PM (view original):
Also the fact that the draft thread is 13 pages longer than the commentary thread reflects the drama fatigue. I’d be willing to bet that taking the conversation outside of the drama would result in 70+ pages full of insight, wisdom, and gentle ribbing.

You can gently rib me all night

@jpevans: I’m not at a computer so I can’t give you much insight but I’d rather give what I can than dive into the other stuff you are talking about. I see what you were trying to do with the build and I think it could be good. It feels like one elite guard short of a complete team (loosely related, I had Collison in season one and had to quit playing him halfway through. He doesn’t offer enough passing, defense or rebounding). I think it makes sense you feel a guard short because on average you drafted players 29 spots ahead of their ADP. If you push everyone from Whiteside on back a round, you probably could have ended up with a similar build that was a lot scarier. Still the defense will be great! I almost drafted Miller or Nurkic. Really unclear why you burned a 7th round pick on Smith, who iirc, didn’t even get drafted last season and now you aren’t even playing him at all. That is a premium pick.

goetz: I’ll have to look at your team later but I seem to recall you drafting a lot of players I was hoping to land. Not sure about the other stuff you included in your post. I don’t recall you actually saying much in the past but I don’t think being good is a prerequisite to chatting. Just look at jhsukow.

Posted by ashamael on 11/8/2020 5:18:00 PM (view original):
I’ve largely tried to refrain from commentary here because it seems that someone always gets offended by well meaning words. The limited stuff I’ve said, I’ve tried to be extra nice instead of helpful.

I’m not going to start now. I will say, however, that imagining that people are slighting your team and becoming very defensive about it usually means one of two things:

1) your team is bad by conventional wisdom
2) those people don’t see what you see

Prove it on the court. If it turns out it was in fact choice number 1, maybe revisit your decisions and how you reacted to commentary.

Also remember, every league has its bottom. Last year, it was Albi. This year, it looks pretty obvious to me, but I’m done with evals in this league until I feel like I prove myself here. Unless you finished in the top 3 or 5 both previous seasons, maybe you should take the same approach. And by you I mean everyone.

Despite that, there has been some solid criticism brought forth. It’s up to each individual to determine the extent they listen to said criticism.

See - I read that one way - ima be last and I needed ash’s lash all along!!! Damn:(

Posted by ashamael on 11/8/2020 5:21:00 PM (view original):
Also the fact that the draft thread is 13 pages longer than the commentary thread reflects the drama fatigue. I’d be willing to bet that taking the conversation outside of the drama would result in 70+ pages full of insight, wisdom, and gentle ribbing.

Yessir.

Posted by robusk on 11/8/2020 5:27:00 PM (view original):
@jpevans: I’m not at a computer so I can’t give you much insight but I’d rather give what I can than dive into the other stuff you are talking about. I see what you were trying to do with the build and I think it could be good. It feels like one elite guard short of a complete team (loosely related, I had Collison in season one and had to quit playing him halfway through. He doesn’t offer enough passing, defense or rebounding). I think it makes sense you feel a guard short because on average you drafted players 29 spots ahead of their ADP. If you push everyone from Whiteside on back a round, you probably could have ended up with a similar build that was a lot scarier. Still the defense will be great! I almost drafted Miller or Nurkic. Really unclear why you burned a 7th round pick on Smith, who iirc, didn’t even get drafted last season and now you aren’t even playing him at all. That is a premium pick.

goetz: I’ll have to look at your team later but I seem to recall you drafting a lot of players I was hoping to land. Not sure about the other stuff you included in your post. I don’t recall you actually saying much in the past but I don’t think being good is a prerequisite to chatting. Just look at jhsukow.

No I’m all good - I enjoyed it - just letting jo know he seems like a decent guy and I understand his viewpoint...at same time I respect vets and don’t take any of it personally...