Posted by tecwrg on 12/8/2020 12:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mlitney on 12/8/2020 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I guess its personal preference, but I like the idea of having higher baseline prestige schools and having to work your way up to them while waiting patiently for one that you like to open.

I'll disagree, and here's why: when I first moved up to D1, I started at Hartford. Easy and fun decision: I was qualified, and in real life, UHart is literally only an 8 minute drive from my house. Before COVID, I was driving past it every morning on my way to work.

I was there for 10-11 seasons, enjoyed building my program, enjoyed the other coaches in the conference, etc. Made an improbable run to the final four one season when I suddenly realized that I was in the friggin' Patriot Conference, and that's at the bottom of the prestige scale. So I decided that I had to move if I wanted to "move up".

I moved to New Mexico in the Mountain West Conference. MWC, because it was a step up prestige-wise, New Mexico because I was qualified and it fit what I was looking for. I've been here for 10-12 seasons now, again have built a decent competitive program, and enjoy the other coaches in my conference. But again, I realize that the MWC is not an "elite" conference, the game is going to work against me in that respect while I stay here, and if I want keep moving "up", I'm going to have to leave again eventually and go to a mid-major, to a school or conference I may not have any real interest in just because I feel compelled to do so.

It sucks having to leave programs that you really don't have a desire to leave because the game is slanted against you while you stay there.

My ideal job would be UConn. It's the program I've followed for 30 years, it's my state school, it's won 4 NT's in real life over the past 25 years, and I'm currently writing tuition checks to them. But I'm likely never going to get there because (a) it's an elite school in an elite conference, and (b) the coach who's there now is probably not going to leave anytime soon because he had to work hard to get there and he's not just going to walk away from the perks, and (c) I'm likely not yet qualified to be accepted there even if there was an opening.

But what is wrong with A B or C for that matter? None of those are a bad option for gaming purposes.

You want UConn just to have them. So does everyone that plays... but that's because they're A+. We're working towards getting that job. If you take baseline away, probably 95% of coaches that play this could care less if they get UConn. The school's fans would still want them. As shoe touched on for a second, most of the big 6 schools would still remain human controlled. There's enough fans of most of the Big 6 conference schools. But I just feel like they should be earned.

Hell I want UConn right now. But if to take away their prestige, I could care less about UConn and pick any team in the world. Cool mascot? Sure I'll take them....... Right now people play this game in a direction, upward. Get better. There's no getting better if all baselines are equal. YOU may like a game like that. I just don't see the people taking control of this game would view that as a good idea for the longevity of the game. I just don't. That's my opinion

"There's no getting better if all baselines are equal."

Coaching at an elite school does not necessarily mean that you got better. It means that you got privileged.

Prestige should be earned via merit and success, not inherently granted. Hypothetically, if I'm coaching at Quinnipiac and build a super successful program that can hold it's own against any other D1 school in the country (assuming a level playing field), I shouldn't be at a recruiting disadvantage against a perennially mediocre Kentucky program.

Different philosophies. Having "prestigious schools" is a carrot to dangle in front of users. A "goal" to achieve. For some its more fun to have these blue blood schools that are inherently better than others.

If the school name means nothing then I suggest DII where all teams are created equal. I can see both sides of the arguement but I think the baseline prestige is one of the items that is supposed to make DI different from the other two divisions.

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/8/2020 4:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/8/2020 10:54:00 AM (view original):
“...you notice the last ten seasons of S16s consist of ALL schools like Liberty, Akron, Oakland, Portland St, Belmont, Bowling Green, Central Michigan, etc..... I'm sorry. But that game becomes less appealing in an instant.

Sure I like the fact that you CAN build those teams up. And they CAN make it that far. But if all 16 teams resemble that, every season, just because the best coaches happen to have those schools, it eliminates the Big 6 importance. And I think that's important to the longevity of the game...”

We don’t need to increase firings to prevent that scenario, doggg, because that scenario isn’t happening. I haven’t heard of any world where all sweet 16 schools came from traditionally low D1 conferences. Or half. Here are the last non-power conference teams in the S16s from the worlds I play in.

Knight 148 - Utah, Colorado State, Memphis (mid majors)
Tark 168 - UAB, San Diego St (mid majors); Delaware St
Smith 121 - Air Force, Temple (mid majors)
Naismith 121 - Miami (OH), Rhode Island, Wichita St, Ohio (mid majors); Murray St, Penn, Vermont
Phelan 148 - St Louis (mid major); Army

So basically an average of 2-3 mid majors and 1 small conference school from this small sample are making the Sweet 16. I really doubt there are worlds producing outlier seasons more extreme than what Naismith just produced, which is *extreme* but not really out of line from what is possible in real life by any means (ie 2011 bracket). Your reasoning is just not based in reality here.

I was not talking about firings in this case. I was referring to the mention of getting rid of baseline all together.

I can't remember where I left off in this argument. I'll re read later! Just popped in for a minute

Lol, YOU are the one who brought up baselines though, as a plank in a discussion about firings. And whether in context of a discussion of baselines or firings... the idea that this game will ever get to a point where “all 16 teams resemble (small conference schools) every season” is silly, either way.

Posted by mullycj on 12/8/2020 6:05:00 PM (view original):
Different philosophies. Having "prestigious schools" is a carrot to dangle in front of users. A "goal" to achieve. For some its more fun to have these blue blood schools that are inherently better than others.

If the school name means nothing then I suggest DII where all teams are created equal. I can see both sides of the arguement but I think the baseline prestige is one of the items that is supposed to make DI different from the other two divisions.

I understand this reasoning and think it makes sense (even if I personally don’t like baseline prestige much at all)

but if we keep baseline prestige under the argument players will want “prestigious schools” than we absolutely need to update the baselines of every DI school. It’s been, what, well over a decade since the baselines were calculated? Since then a lot of teams have shifted significantly in the college basketball hierarchy.

I guess what I’m saying I don’t think that it’s much of a carrot at all when the baselines don’t reflect the reality in CBB now (I.e. Illinois as an A+, Gonzaga as a B, etc.)

Posted by tecwrg on 12/8/2020 5:12:00 PM (view original):
"There's no getting better if all baselines are equal."

Coaching at an elite school does not necessarily mean that you got better. It means that you got privileged.

Prestige should be earned via merit and success, not inherently granted. Hypothetically, if I'm coaching at Quinnipiac and build a super successful program that can hold it's own against any other D1 school in the country (assuming a level playing field), I shouldn't be at a recruiting disadvantage against a perennially mediocre Kentucky program.

Here's where we're not seeing eye to eye. Your Quinnipiac/Kentucky comparison.... I agree with. But the game works like that now. Look at Chaps Delaware St team. Or the other mid majors that have won big. They just fall faster once they don't continue the success.

And my last point.... what you're saying is great for your perspective. Or any coach that feels the game should be played in the manner you're describing. But you didn't HAVE to leave any of those jobs. People win at small schools. Check the champions thread. Also regarding prestige being earned via merit, not inherited...... it is. I can't apply for UConn right now. I have to go earn that stuff. You work towards a UConn. Not inherit it.

But I'm thinking for long term company success, not for myself.

Posted by A_B_G on 12/8/2020 7:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 12/8/2020 6:05:00 PM (view original):
Different philosophies. Having "prestigious schools" is a carrot to dangle in front of users. A "goal" to achieve. For some its more fun to have these blue blood schools that are inherently better than others.

If the school name means nothing then I suggest DII where all teams are created equal. I can see both sides of the arguement but I think the baseline prestige is one of the items that is supposed to make DI different from the other two divisions.

I understand this reasoning and think it makes sense (even if I personally don’t like baseline prestige much at all)

but if we keep baseline prestige under the argument players will want “prestigious schools” than we absolutely need to update the baselines of every DI school. It’s been, what, well over a decade since the baselines were calculated? Since then a lot of teams have shifted significantly in the college basketball hierarchy.

I guess what I’m saying I don’t think that it’s much of a carrot at all when the baselines don’t reflect the reality in CBB now (I.e. Illinois as an A+, Gonzaga as a B, etc.)

I'm not gonna hate this one too much. Because I'm one FOR baseline adjustments. But the number of teams that aren't in the realm of their current prestige, is very few. Maybe 10-20 teams. I think it would be nice to get them right. But the game still "looks" like college basketball now. If we remove baseline, I'm telling you, the game would not look the same ever again.

Posted by A_B_G on 12/8/2020 7:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 12/8/2020 6:05:00 PM (view original):
Different philosophies. Having "prestigious schools" is a carrot to dangle in front of users. A "goal" to achieve. For some its more fun to have these blue blood schools that are inherently better than others.

If the school name means nothing then I suggest DII where all teams are created equal. I can see both sides of the arguement but I think the baseline prestige is one of the items that is supposed to make DI different from the other two divisions.

I understand this reasoning and think it makes sense (even if I personally don’t like baseline prestige much at all)

but if we keep baseline prestige under the argument players will want “prestigious schools” than we absolutely need to update the baselines of every DI school. It’s been, what, well over a decade since the baselines were calculated? Since then a lot of teams have shifted significantly in the college basketball hierarchy.

I guess what I’m saying I don’t think that it’s much of a carrot at all when the baselines don’t reflect the reality in CBB now (I.e. Illinois as an A+, Gonzaga as a B, etc.)

I suggest you check the AP Top 25 rankings if you don't think Illinois is an A+.

jk jk, just playing with you

Posted by mullycj on 12/8/2020 6:05:00 PM (view original):
Different philosophies. Having "prestigious schools" is a carrot to dangle in front of users. A "goal" to achieve. For some its more fun to have these blue blood schools that are inherently better than others.

If the school name means nothing then I suggest DII where all teams are created equal. I can see both sides of the arguement but I think the baseline prestige is one of the items that is supposed to make DI different from the other two divisions.

D2 doesn't really address the issue, which is being at a disadvantage when competing for recruits. In the case of D2, you're at a distinct disadvantage competing against D1 schools. A different "flavor" of the prestige issue.

And that's fine. D2 is a different animal. As is D3. But they are still a level playing field as all D2 coaches face the same disadvantage when competing for D1 recruits.

All D3 teams are essentially created equal. As are all D2 teams. Not the case for D1.

I guess I like baseline prestige because it keeps the game more in line with real world NCAA basketball. I don't want to see mostly low to mid-major schools in the top-25 and NT. A school like Hartford could almost never sustain a real life dynasty because its a small school and they simply don't have the funding and recognition to do so. Baseline prestige replicates that.

I wouldn't mind seeing prestige updated every 5 years or so, but its realistic and that's why I'd want to keep it. But that's just my opinion. Its a preference. HD is obviously not real life, but there's also no way a school like chapel's Delaware State has that type of multi-year success in real life. So I feel like this sim is already slanted towards smaller schools having a better chance than they should.

Now if you wanted to get rid of baseline prestige and create some type of revenue/budget, then I'd be down for that. The better your team is playing, the more revenue you make (limited by the size of your stadium). The revenue would be your recruiting/scouting budget for the next season. The caveat being that you can also use that money to upgrade your stadium every few seasons (in lieu of some recruiting/scouting $$). That would give smaller schools a chance to compete with long-term sustainability, although it would take a long time to build that program into an elite. It also wouldn't keep the already elite schools at the top since they'd already have the large stadiums. The flip side is that the smaller schools would start at a huge deficit, which would make it much harder for coaches that aren't staying long-term. To adjust for that, they'd have to make it easier to get hired at a higher prestige school. This would work similar to how the soccer dynasty system is set up. Just a thought.

Posted by mlitney on 12/9/2020 1:30:00 PM (view original):
I guess I like baseline prestige because it keeps the game more in line with real world NCAA basketball. I don't want to see mostly low to mid-major schools in the top-25 and NT. A school like Hartford could almost never sustain a real life dynasty because its a small school and they simply don't have the funding and recognition to do so. Baseline prestige replicates that.

I wouldn't mind seeing prestige updated every 5 years or so, but its realistic and that's why I'd want to keep it. But that's just my opinion. Its a preference. HD is obviously not real life, but there's also no way a school like chapel's Delaware State has that type of multi-year success in real life. So I feel like this sim is already slanted towards smaller schools having a better chance than they should.

Now if you wanted to get rid of baseline prestige and create some type of revenue/budget, then I'd be down for that. The better your team is playing, the more revenue you make (limited by the size of your stadium). The revenue would be your recruiting/scouting budget for the next season. The caveat being that you can also use that money to upgrade your stadium every few seasons (in lieu of some recruiting/scouting $$). That would give smaller schools a chance to compete with long-term sustainability, although it would take a long time to build that program into an elite. It also wouldn't keep the already elite schools at the top since they'd already have the large stadiums. The flip side is that the smaller schools would start at a huge deficit, which would make it much harder for coaches that aren't staying long-term. To adjust for that, they'd have to make it easier to get hired at a higher prestige school. This would work similar to how the soccer dynasty system is set up. Just a thought.

My man.

Baseline HAS to exist. I'm not flexible on that at all. And I wouldn't expect the new crew behind the controls to feel otherwise, after reviewing everything that needs to be considered.

As far as tweaks, leaving it alone, updating, changing..... that's at least a debatable topic.

Most importantly, the community is talking, and it appears the WifS ears are also listening more. All good stuff!

It doesn't really have to exist in its current form. The caveat being that there's a good system to takes its place. With that said, I like baseline prestige, even with its current issues.

If i was going to make a college basketball sim, the baselines would be more flexible. If UNC failed to make the NT for 5 concurrent seasons, they'd still be strong but maybe drop to an A-.

I don't want to see mid majors like say Long Beach St have the same baseline prestige as UConn. It wouldn't feel right to me. Plus if baseline prestige went away imagine how spread out human coaches over division 1 would become.

What I think would be a more reasonable fix would be a greater fluctuation of prestige for each school. Make it so Uconn can dip down into the B prestige, or make it so Rutgers doesn't have to win a national championship to become a A+ prestige. Give schools a larger range of prestige but keep prestige.

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/9/2020 3:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mlitney on 12/9/2020 1:30:00 PM (view original):
I guess I like baseline prestige because it keeps the game more in line with real world NCAA basketball. I don't want to see mostly low to mid-major schools in the top-25 and NT. A school like Hartford could almost never sustain a real life dynasty because its a small school and they simply don't have the funding and recognition to do so. Baseline prestige replicates that.

I wouldn't mind seeing prestige updated every 5 years or so, but its realistic and that's why I'd want to keep it. But that's just my opinion. Its a preference. HD is obviously not real life, but there's also no way a school like chapel's Delaware State has that type of multi-year success in real life. So I feel like this sim is already slanted towards smaller schools having a better chance than they should.

Now if you wanted to get rid of baseline prestige and create some type of revenue/budget, then I'd be down for that. The better your team is playing, the more revenue you make (limited by the size of your stadium). The revenue would be your recruiting/scouting budget for the next season. The caveat being that you can also use that money to upgrade your stadium every few seasons (in lieu of some recruiting/scouting $$). That would give smaller schools a chance to compete with long-term sustainability, although it would take a long time to build that program into an elite. It also wouldn't keep the already elite schools at the top since they'd already have the large stadiums. The flip side is that the smaller schools would start at a huge deficit, which would make it much harder for coaches that aren't staying long-term. To adjust for that, they'd have to make it easier to get hired at a higher prestige school. This would work similar to how the soccer dynasty system is set up. Just a thought.

My man.

Baseline HAS to exist. I'm not flexible on that at all. And I wouldn't expect the new crew behind the controls to feel otherwise, after reviewing everything that needs to be considered.

As far as tweaks, leaving it alone, updating, changing..... that's at least a debatable topic.

Most importantly, the community is talking, and it appears the WifS ears are also listening more. All good stuff!

I mean, HAS to exist is a stretch for me, but I generally think its a good thing. But... if we are going to boil down the what I think is the real problem is that right now there is a prestige boost with no accountability. Everything is about balance, if you promise minutes to a player in HD you get a bonus in recruiting if others don't, but you have to commit to the promise or you get negative WE adjustments or the player leaves if the promise isn't fulfilled.

If coaches at a higher baseline prestige school are going to get an advantage there needs to be a negative side to the advantage, which logically is more accountability in keeping your job. If you want that UConn job, then missing the tournament 3 of 4 years probably isn't going to cut it.

*Disclaimer: Anything I say is NOT what we are going to do, we are still planning priorities and road mapping, so please... don't freak out*

I should make that Disclaimer my signature.

-Adam

Posted by adlorenz on 12/9/2020 11:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/9/2020 3:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mlitney on 12/9/2020 1:30:00 PM (view original):
I guess I like baseline prestige because it keeps the game more in line with real world NCAA basketball. I don't want to see mostly low to mid-major schools in the top-25 and NT. A school like Hartford could almost never sustain a real life dynasty because its a small school and they simply don't have the funding and recognition to do so. Baseline prestige replicates that.

I wouldn't mind seeing prestige updated every 5 years or so, but its realistic and that's why I'd want to keep it. But that's just my opinion. Its a preference. HD is obviously not real life, but there's also no way a school like chapel's Delaware State has that type of multi-year success in real life. So I feel like this sim is already slanted towards smaller schools having a better chance than they should.

Now if you wanted to get rid of baseline prestige and create some type of revenue/budget, then I'd be down for that. The better your team is playing, the more revenue you make (limited by the size of your stadium). The revenue would be your recruiting/scouting budget for the next season. The caveat being that you can also use that money to upgrade your stadium every few seasons (in lieu of some recruiting/scouting $$). That would give smaller schools a chance to compete with long-term sustainability, although it would take a long time to build that program into an elite. It also wouldn't keep the already elite schools at the top since they'd already have the large stadiums. The flip side is that the smaller schools would start at a huge deficit, which would make it much harder for coaches that aren't staying long-term. To adjust for that, they'd have to make it easier to get hired at a higher prestige school. This would work similar to how the soccer dynasty system is set up. Just a thought.

My man.

Baseline HAS to exist. I'm not flexible on that at all. And I wouldn't expect the new crew behind the controls to feel otherwise, after reviewing everything that needs to be considered.

As far as tweaks, leaving it alone, updating, changing..... that's at least a debatable topic.

Most importantly, the community is talking, and it appears the WifS ears are also listening more. All good stuff!

I mean, HAS to exist is a stretch for me, but I generally think its a good thing. But... if we are going to boil down the what I think is the real problem is that right now there is a prestige boost with no accountability. Everything is about balance, if you promise minutes to a player in HD you get a bonus in recruiting if others don't, but you have to commit to the promise or you get negative WE adjustments or the player leaves if the promise isn't fulfilled.

If coaches at a higher baseline prestige school are going to get an advantage there needs to be a negative side to the advantage, which logically is more accountability in keeping your job. If you want that UConn job, then missing the tournament 3 of 4 years probably isn't going to cut it.

*Disclaimer: Anything I say is NOT what we are going to do, we are still planning priorities and road mapping, so please... don't freak out*

I should make that Disclaimer my signature.

-Adam

Yeah I mainly agree with your thoughts here.

I would say that baseline *has* to exist to make D1 what it is. No baseline and it's just D2 with EEs.

I do think if you increase firings at Big6 D1 (especially A+ baseline) you should consider giving fired coaches some credits to get their career underway again at a new school... you really don't want to make people quit.