A $200k pitcher has far less value than a good F stamina AAA player, perhaps a difference greater than $1.5M in value. That is an unbalanced trade. No crime for anyone in the league to veto that. It could work out to several WAR, hypothetically. ..

I prefer my AAA to have F stamina

that said I’ve traded many stud AAA hitters and pitchers for rl 200k scrubs cause it was more beneficial to my team

Hey Redwing my old foe. I guess you consider me a guppie geting my lunch eaten' in those trades. I make those trades in almost every OL, CL, or OL concept I am in.

I veto those trades every time, even if both owners know exactly what they're doing and why. In my view, they are both gaming the system. OLs, it seems to me, are intended very specifically to be $80M drafted rosters (not a penny more) plus 8 AAA guys of variable (but comparable overall) quality. Because each owner's AAA draw is variable, it makes sense to me that you might trade 1 AAA for someone's AAA. Reasonable exchange, both teams still have $80M in drafted player value plus 8 AAA guys of variable but comparable overall quality.

But the AAA for $200K trade gives both of those teams a potentially substantive advantage over the rest of the league, in ways that I don't think are fair or intended.

The guy getting the AAA is getting something much more valuable than the $200K he spent for the scrub player. He now has ~$79.8M in drafted roster plus 9 AAA guys - a substantial upgrade.
The guy getting the $200K scrub is almost certainly stockpiling several players to dump on the WW for a $1M-$2M player, probably a stud RP of PH. He could end up with an ~$81.5M roster of drafted players.

These are, in my opinion, unintended consequences of the ability to make trades in OLs. Why unintended? Because if they were intentional, the SIM would just allow you to drop the AAA guys directly, rather than having to make the trade to convert the AAA guy into cash (and/or a waiverable asset). You can't drop AAA. So to me, these trades are just exploiting a loop hole to do something that wasn't intended. Doesn't matter that everyone could in theory do the same thing.

In practical terms this rarely matters. Most other owners either don't care or don't pay attention and so those trades end up going through, most of the time. But on principle, I veto them all.

well, i veto all trades not proposed by me on the theory (1) they are not intended to help my team and (2) let's make it easier for independent cusses of all stripes to put the kibosh too

but i will occasionally let one slide when it benefits me

I don't think it would be a great loss if trading were banned in Open Leagues, or at the very least limited to AAA for AAA.

Posted by contrarian23 on 12/10/2020 6:09:00 AM (view original):
I veto those trades every time, even if both owners know exactly what they're doing and why. In my view, they are both gaming the system. OLs, it seems to me, are intended very specifically to be $80M drafted rosters (not a penny more) plus 8 AAA guys of variable (but comparable overall) quality. Because each owner's AAA draw is variable, it makes sense to me that you might trade 1 AAA for someone's AAA. Reasonable exchange, both teams still have $80M in drafted player value plus 8 AAA guys of variable but comparable overall quality.

But the AAA for $200K trade gives both of those teams a potentially substantive advantage over the rest of the league, in ways that I don't think are fair or intended.

The guy getting the AAA is getting something much more valuable than the $200K he spent for the scrub player. He now has ~$79.8M in drafted roster plus 9 AAA guys - a substantial upgrade.
The guy getting the $200K scrub is almost certainly stockpiling several players to dump on the WW for a $1M-$2M player, probably a stud RP of PH. He could end up with an ~$81.5M roster of drafted players.

These are, in my opinion, unintended consequences of the ability to make trades in OLs. Why unintended? Because if they were intentional, the SIM would just allow you to drop the AAA guys directly, rather than having to make the trade to convert the AAA guy into cash (and/or a waiverable asset). You can't drop AAA. So to me, these trades are just exploiting a loop hole to do something that wasn't intended. Doesn't matter that everyone could in theory do the same thing.

In practical terms this rarely matters. Most other owners either don't care or don't pay attention and so those trades end up going through, most of the time. But on principle, I veto them all.

Yes, the person getting the $200k scrubs could have a roster of $81.5m, while the team receiving the AAA could be $79.5m, but for both sides, when you account for their AAA value, both teams are likely both in the $93m range. ($1.8m per AAA hitter and $1m per AAA pitcher), So their actual value still balances out overall, they're just accessing and utilizing that value differently. I don't think it's as big a discrepancy as it appears at first glance, and I don't think it's necessarily a loophole given the overall balance.

Posted by grizzly_one on 12/10/2020 12:20:00 AM (view original):
Hey Redwing my old foe. I guess you consider me a guppie geting my lunch eaten' in those trades. I make those trades in almost every OL, CL, or OL concept I am in.

Consider you a guppie? Not at all. I know you, cwillis, and many others make those trades. I veto them when it's clear to me the equity values are lopsided. It's certainly in my best interest and my opinion is that it's in the league's best interest too. Nonetheless, I see many of them go through without a hitch.

Posted by Mwett on 12/10/2020 11:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by contrarian23 on 12/10/2020 6:09:00 AM (view original):
I veto those trades every time, even if both owners know exactly what they're doing and why. In my view, they are both gaming the system. OLs, it seems to me, are intended very specifically to be $80M drafted rosters (not a penny more) plus 8 AAA guys of variable (but comparable overall) quality. Because each owner's AAA draw is variable, it makes sense to me that you might trade 1 AAA for someone's AAA. Reasonable exchange, both teams still have $80M in drafted player value plus 8 AAA guys of variable but comparable overall quality.

But the AAA for $200K trade gives both of those teams a potentially substantive advantage over the rest of the league, in ways that I don't think are fair or intended.

The guy getting the AAA is getting something much more valuable than the $200K he spent for the scrub player. He now has ~$79.8M in drafted roster plus 9 AAA guys - a substantial upgrade.
The guy getting the $200K scrub is almost certainly stockpiling several players to dump on the WW for a $1M-$2M player, probably a stud RP of PH. He could end up with an ~$81.5M roster of drafted players.

These are, in my opinion, unintended consequences of the ability to make trades in OLs. Why unintended? Because if they were intentional, the SIM would just allow you to drop the AAA guys directly, rather than having to make the trade to convert the AAA guy into cash (and/or a waiverable asset). You can't drop AAA. So to me, these trades are just exploiting a loop hole to do something that wasn't intended. Doesn't matter that everyone could in theory do the same thing.

In practical terms this rarely matters. Most other owners either don't care or don't pay attention and so those trades end up going through, most of the time. But on principle, I veto them all.

+1,000%. Thank you for this. I too not only veto them and pay attention to proposals, but additionally sound the alert to the rest of the league with overall good veto success that might otherwise go unnoticed or thought of as inconsequential as contrarian23 mentions above as reasons why they might sneak thru. These are completely not only unfair to the rest of the league specially unaware newbs, but have nothing to do with draft and budget talent acquisition beyond, as also spot on noted above, gaming the system.

There's a guy I share a current OL with who's a regular post contributor and otherwise generally in good standing who does often offer decent effort and advice to others, all good things. But unfortunately he's also all in on this farce of fair play and loopholes, and not only unabashedly parrots the advantages of this practice, and not only 5 seconds after a league is officially formed offers up that all his AAA are available for 200K scrubs, but then posts 2 feet worth of 'how to' in dumping 6 scrubs for 1 usable player. I'm sure we'll soon be hearing from him defending 'his side', which I hope only further proves to the rest of us this sketchy yet regularly used practice.

Again, thanx for publicly exposing this. Course, one fallout effect when caught is rather than keep quiet about you got caught, is instead the typical chorus of "waaahh mind your own biz". You got caught, and will continue to get get caught with good veto success if you're in any of my leagues. My hope is paying forward the heads-up and others follow suit.

If you’re gonna call me out at least have the balls to say my name

I will defend it because I don’t see anything wrong with it. If it makes my teams and their teams better then how could it be gaming the system? Everyone has the option to do the same.

like it or not aaa are in OL, trading is a part of OL. I’m taking what I have available to make my team better. that’s all.

Contrarian is one of the most respected owners on this site and I respect his position but I disagree.

im gonna pick up an RP on WW regardless, I’d just rather have 1.6-2.0m rather than 1.2-1.4m

How does me giving a new owner a $1.6-2.5m aaa player taking advantage of them?

if anything I am being taken advantage of by trading my AAA for scrubs. The 3-4 AAA I trade away are gonna be more valuable than the one RP I get, but I didn’t build my team to need the AAA players, I built it to need an RP

Holier than thou much? Geezus.

It's a game. I never try and take advantage of a newb. I usually trade with a vet. If it is a newb, I try and give them exceptional value in the trade.

Maybe some of you aren't aware, but in the "pick your own" you can drop the AAA guy for 200k. Also they are NOT normalized to the current season. That is why I think AAA should be real names without the screwy normalization and they should be cut-able. Then those trades would not ever happen.