1 mile or 1000 miles Topic

Posted by fluff_nasty on 12/11/2020 1:57:00 AM (view original):
If this user scouted for both of those teams this year, then both teams are in violation of the FPGs.

"Collusion includes any act that supports bad, deceitful or illegal behavior agreed upon by two or more users or attempted by a single user. Here are a few examples:
  • Sharing Future Stars Scouting (FSS) information between multiple teams"

-Taken from the FPGs, I would post a link but ya'll know where to find them.
Users like th0nly (who had more than 10 teams total between his two accounts) would publically state which states they would recruit from with each team in 2.0. In 3.0 this doesn't work as well.
8.5.5
12/13/2020 11:22 AM
I dislike multiple teams from the same user, in the same world...

It's impossible to not "cheat", because by being 1000 miles away and recruiting for each team, you're gaining an unfair advantage by knowing of other recruits on the other team's radar... Sorry, it's cheating 100%... It may be irrelevant and not used, but its 100% against the rules to have that knowledge. People might not care, but I'm confused how anyone can argue that it doesn't violate the FPG at all, it does...

I hate the "dying game" argument... 5-7 users having 2-3 teams in a world, isn't moving the state of the game to living or dead in any fashion. The reason the game is dying, is because there have been zero improvements in 10 years, and as the new site staff has put it "Years of backlogged requests"...

I'm glad the focus is to bring more players in, but if we continue to allow little things here and there, I just feel it's an endless road of "well this is allowed so who cares"... It already started, when we used examples of AB90 having teams only 990 miles away instead of the 1000... No 10 miles doesn't make a difference, but it's another example of letting little stuff slide, with no real reason, except laziness with the guise of another excuse.

I recently started back in HD, after a long hiatus, and I came back to a feeling of "Old boys club"... You're either in it, or you're out of it. All the top players are in it, and you can see them all posting, and having the biggest voices and opinions (shoot Gil doesnt even play anymore and still chimes in)... Removing the little overlooked or ignored tidbits, would be a very good start in restoring that feeling of a level'd playing field.
12/13/2020 2:53 PM (edited)
I agree with that lil spike
12/13/2020 3:29 PM
I have no problem dropping teams as the worlds roll over. No worries. What's another Sim team in worlds filled with them......

Now, I know of several users with multiple ID's in the same worlds. Will they drop their extra teams as well? One thing for sure, two for certain, I won't be posting on the forums who they are.....

I have a son who is in his late teens. I could very easily explain to Adam that emy is my account and dcy is his (which would line up with our real world initials). Tell Adam that he is now running the dcy account and me the emy account and that I'm just using my credit card to pay for his teams since he doesn't have one. Prove me wrong.

As far as "not caring".......please Top, don't **** on my leg and tell me it's raining. If you "didn't care", you wouldn't have started the thread in the first place. At least be man enough to admit that. Your passive-aggressiveness in most threads is very unbecoming. For those who comment on what number of teams is "enough" or "too many", how dare you tell anyone else what is acceptable to do with their time, money, or hobbies. The FPG are clear, no teams in the same conference or within 1000 miles of each other. None of my teams violate those guidelines.

As I said, I'll drop some teams as the worlds roll over. I guess if I want more than one team in a world, I'll just have to go dark like other coaches do instead of making myself known.....
12/13/2020 6:10 PM (edited)
How is a new user supposed to know about the 1,000 mile rule?

We could help prevent future violations by making the FPGs more accessible. Adding them to the ‘help’ drop down menu, and pinning them on the forums would go a long ways. At least in my opinion.
12/13/2020 6:28 PM
Thanks for pinning the FPGs adlorenz.

:)

I'll shut up now
12/13/2020 7:53 PM
Posted by emy1013 on 12/13/2020 6:10:00 PM (view original):
I have no problem dropping teams as the worlds roll over. No worries. What's another Sim team in worlds filled with them......

Now, I know of several users with multiple ID's in the same worlds. Will they drop their extra teams as well? One thing for sure, two for certain, I won't be posting on the forums who they are.....

I have a son who is in his late teens. I could very easily explain to Adam that emy is my account and dcy is his (which would line up with our real world initials). Tell Adam that he is now running the dcy account and me the emy account and that I'm just using my credit card to pay for his teams since he doesn't have one. Prove me wrong.

As far as "not caring".......please Top, don't **** on my leg and tell me it's raining. If you "didn't care", you wouldn't have started the thread in the first place. At least be man enough to admit that. Your passive-aggressiveness in most threads is very unbecoming. For those who comment on what number of teams is "enough" or "too many", how dare you tell anyone else what is acceptable to do with their time, money, or hobbies. The FPG are clear, no teams in the same conference or within 1000 miles of each other. None of my teams violate those guidelines.

As I said, I'll drop some teams as the worlds roll over. I guess if I want more than one team in a world, I'll just have to go dark like other coaches do instead of making myself known.....
I honestly don't care emy. I've never had one single issue with you or anything related to you, your teams, or your profiles. I consider you an asset to the game. You're a quality coach.

Why do I have to have a problem with you, simply because I'm discussing this? I think I've been very clear on what I like and dont like here. To list a few, I don't like ab90 shenanigans with team hopping, aka gaming the system for personal gain. I'm very outspoken and I'm not afraid to mention anything I don't like.

All things "you" just doesn't happen to be one of the things I care about. No one even said you're breaking any rules. I know the rules. You're just taking offense to this because the rule we are discussing affects you. No one told you to drop your teams, I wouldn't drop any if I were you. I obviously knew you'd be reading along here. If I had a problem with YOU I'd tell you. It's cool man. I am just discussing the rules here. And I'm not the only one that feels the way I do. If you'd like to use me as a punching bag, feel free. When you stand up for something in this world, there's always kickback. I get it
12/13/2020 8:40 PM (edited)
Posted by adlorenz on 12/12/2020 6:58:00 PM (view original):
I don't disagree with a lot of that DeBeque, but I would say it's not that simple.

So, let's talk about this, there are teams that operate in the open having 2 schools in the same world, pretty much harmlessly. There are probably more that operate in darkness as well. I could spend my rotations, using the tools I have to find all these accounts, but wouldn't you rather me respond to this issues reactively and have new features and focus on bringing new users to the game where these two account users would be diluted in a sea of players.

I am generally in the camp of shoe on this one. We have a dying game (that is a fact), In a perfect world, yes, there wouldn't be users with two account in the same world, let alone division. "But don’t get lost in the letter of the law. Focus on benefit and harm." It would be pretty obvious to see if these users with multiple team were sharing information based on where recruits are signed, etc.

In this case, the FPG have been around for awhile and probably need to be reexamined. I'll be honest with you all I've known of emy since my first season, but I had no idea that was his account as well, I would gander at the forums from time to time but I would mostly live in my own world. The optics on the situation aren't great and you are right DeBeque, there needs to be transparency about these accounts (which emy has done), and probably a good middle ground is looking at updating the guidelines to include 1000 miles between schools and not in the same division, so there is not direct competition between schools. An update to the job application process would remove the need for crossover years, which I would see as an excuse users might use.

Either way I appreciate the conversations in this thread, I have spoken the GD thread that if you think there is cheating going on never hesitate to email me at [email protected].
i appreciate your reasonableness, but frankly i just don't think its practical anymore. i agree with basically everything you said, and i think a calm, rational look at the situation backs most of it up (this is a small game, CS has better things to do that pursue marginal stuff, the biggest risk of cheating is from those operating in the dark, etc, etc).

however, i've come around to thinking it is like holding back the tide. people are too emotional about this stuff and too few are swayed by reason. it would be great if the game could stay casual in this regard, but i think it really turns off some of these sort of black-and-whiters who are just inherently opposed to any shades of gray.

i think the current thread is a perfect example of the hopelessness of our situation. on one hand, you have emy coaching 2 teams in a d2 - a coach who has been openly running 2 accounts for 15 years or so (longer than the 12 i've been here), a top tier coach who has never been accused of anything. lately his forum presence has mostly consisted of giving back an endless rash of teams to folks who forgot to renew. he's coaching one of his teams in alaska - a perch known for being among the hardest in the game. it was clearly picked up for an extra challenge, not for collusion, and sits a whopping 3000+ miles away from his other team. he's coaching in the lower divisions which have practically become a wasteland, and there has been *absolutely* no suggestion of impropriety between the teams. this is arguably the least offensive situation one could devise.

on the other hand, you have not just a handful of new coaches running on emotions, but a thread from a veteran with 10+ titles himself. a veteran who actively participates in the community (usually in a positive way), who has started a bunch and participated in plenty more of these threads, who knows *everything* you just said to be true - but still goes around stirring the pot. i'd almost guarantee you could find a post from him in those 'crap i forgot to renew' threads telling emy that he would tell these guys to shove it and that its admirable emy is willing to turn over so many jobs.

so here we are - if a long term veteran who knows the size and state of the game can't be won over (and note - there was no rational argument in anything he posted - its the exact same dump of emotions you'd get from a rookie on their first day), to the point where he's upset that an ex-military hall of famer could possibly be using his 3000 mile away, tough-as-nails fairbanks alaska perch to somehow benefit his other team in some nebulous, totally unspecified way... what chance do we have? he even openly admits he has no problem with emy and doubts emy is doing anything improper - but still, there is this thread. most cases are far less black and white than this one, and there's always new coaches coming in.

just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.
12/14/2020 11:15 AM (edited)

I don't think this is a big deal. Why? Because there are only about 15 of us playing this game and we all have different coaches names. : ) So this happens all the time, it just isn't always so obvious.
12/14/2020 11:20 AM
“just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.”

If it is as simple as getting rid of the allowance, then I’m cool with it. But I don’t think it is. I don’t know of any way of doing this that doesn’t actually make CS life harder, and forum life much worse. If there is, I’m all ears.
12/14/2020 11:54 AM
Posted by lilspike0738 on 12/13/2020 2:53:00 PM (view original):
I dislike multiple teams from the same user, in the same world...

It's impossible to not "cheat", because by being 1000 miles away and recruiting for each team, you're gaining an unfair advantage by knowing of other recruits on the other team's radar... Sorry, it's cheating 100%... It may be irrelevant and not used, but its 100% against the rules to have that knowledge. People might not care, but I'm confused how anyone can argue that it doesn't violate the FPG at all, it does...

I hate the "dying game" argument... 5-7 users having 2-3 teams in a world, isn't moving the state of the game to living or dead in any fashion. The reason the game is dying, is because there have been zero improvements in 10 years, and as the new site staff has put it "Years of backlogged requests"...

I'm glad the focus is to bring more players in, but if we continue to allow little things here and there, I just feel it's an endless road of "well this is allowed so who cares"... It already started, when we used examples of AB90 having teams only 990 miles away instead of the 1000... No 10 miles doesn't make a difference, but it's another example of letting little stuff slide, with no real reason, except laziness with the guise of another excuse.

I recently started back in HD, after a long hiatus, and I came back to a feeling of "Old boys club"... You're either in it, or you're out of it. All the top players are in it, and you can see them all posting, and having the biggest voices and opinions (shoot Gil doesnt even play anymore and still chimes in)... Removing the little overlooked or ignored tidbits, would be a very good start in restoring that feeling of a level'd playing field.
if it is 5-7 users, i agree its pointless. i doubt its that small, but maybe? it was at least 50-100 and they made a substantial portion of the coached team pool, when this became a bit point of contention, so it used to be a lot bigger deal. plus, you know, it used to be 100% accepted - encouraged even - so a lot of folks were getting stuck with useless resumes and 0 help from CS deal with it. i'm just saying, its not like this was some big fight for 5 people. if it really is 5 people now i would 100% agree its a no-brainer. i pretty much took my stand and lost 7 years ago, and even then i was just asking for CS to help the folks impacted, i was fine going to single-team-per-world, despite the downsides (3 teams max for 2/day coaches etc).

i get the old boys club comment but i think if there really was an old boys club, the multiple teams thing would have went differently, the PIT cutoff would never have happened, and especially 3.0's d1 recruiting situation (re: coin flips and EEs) would have never happened. also potential would probably have soft caps. an awful lot of the changes that have happened to HD happened over the protests of veterans (which sometimes were definitely overboard / misplaced), which is perhaps why so many have left after each round.

i guess i just think its a little more complicated than all that. i don't object to what you are saying though. its too bad that is the feeling folks get, i wish that wasn't the case! i think the worst of it is, sometimes (often) in the discussions it comes down to a lot of finger-pointing of the sort 'you only want this because it benefits you personally', which is where i think things really break down and get unproductive (i know you did not say that here). as much as i disagree with a lot of the stuff said here and in other discussions on the future of the game, i think almost every involved party is advocating for what they think is good for the game.
12/14/2020 12:03 PM
Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 11:54:00 AM (view original):
“just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.”

If it is as simple as getting rid of the allowance, then I’m cool with it. But I don’t think it is. I don’t know of any way of doing this that doesn’t actually make CS life harder, and forum life much worse. If there is, I’m all ears.
perhaps. put it out 12 months to give folks time (and post on every conference board), maybe give some free credits to the folks impacted (assuming they won't move resumes around etc). i could be wrong, maybe its because i have 0 teams and it no longer impacts me, but from what i've seen, most of the folks who used to have multiple accounts simply don't coach at all anymore, and those who do largely moved away from from the 2 teams slowly after CS started caring 8 years ago. but i could be wrong. maybe its still a ton of people and would be a disaster.
12/14/2020 12:11 PM
also it is hilarious that the thread that will be forever pinned on FPGs comes from the 1 guy shown to actually be meaningfully cheating, in recent HD history... maybe CS will make their own thread and pin it, feels a little... cleaner
12/14/2020 12:17 PM
I like disclosure as a fix.

Leave the rules as they are - collusion, fair play, no sharing info between teams and the 1000 mile rule

Just add that any user names that are under common control must be disclosed. Somewhere on the site you list the names under which you operate on the site. Available for anyone to see and for CS to see. Two effects

1. Users could look when they think something is fishy

2. If someone has control of two user names but FAILS to disclose it makes their behavior suspect and worth more checking.

12/14/2020 12:19 PM
Further to the above - I am mamxet, metsmax and fd343ny. Zero teams in the same world.

Before 3.0, I had some worlds with more than one team (but followed the 1000 mile rule and did not share across teams)

Why three names?

mamxet was first (I meant to say maxmet but it was a typo.....)

added metsmax when new worlds were opening and I wanted to grab a couple of spots

fd343ny was when I got my brother in law to play. He did for a while. Then he asked me to look after his teams. Then he said he was too busy.

No current or planned overlaps in any world.
12/14/2020 12:22 PM
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