Posted by gillispie1 on 12/14/2020 12:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 11:54:00 AM (view original):
“just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.”

If it is as simple as getting rid of the allowance, then I’m cool with it. But I don’t think it is. I don’t know of any way of doing this that doesn’t actually make CS life harder, and forum life much worse. If there is, I’m all ears.

perhaps. put it out 12 months to give folks time (and post on every conference board), maybe give some free credits to the folks impacted (assuming they won't move resumes around etc). i could be wrong, maybe its because i have 0 teams and it no longer impacts me, but from what i've seen, most of the folks who used to have multiple accounts simply don't coach at all anymore, and those who do largely moved away from from the 2 teams slowly after CS started caring 8 years ago. but i could be wrong. maybe its still a ton of people and would be a disaster.

The impact of this is almost entirely removing accounts from people who are already complying with FairPlay guidelines, folks who aren’t cheating. I assume someone who is trying to cheat using multiple accounts is not open about having multiple accounts. If an IP and/or CC check is put in place, VPN and a separate card can probably skirt those rules in most cases. So we’re left with the same situation we have now - the community reports suspicious behavior, and CS has to investigate the trail - except a whole lot of bad will and resentment gets thrown in on top of it.

It would be much better if folks would just play their own game. Accept that some people are always going to try to cheat; and realize this is an Internet game, and sometimes sin is its own punishment. Someone going to all the trouble of covering their tracks and operating incognito accounts to gain some slight edge in a recruit battle or two every season on a fake basketball game probably deserves my pity more than community vengeance.

Posted by fd343ny on 12/14/2020 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Further to the above - I am mamxet, metsmax and fd343ny. Zero teams in the same world.

Before 3.0, I had some worlds with more than one team (but followed the 1000 mile rule and did not share across teams)

Why three names?

mamxet was first (I meant to say maxmet but it was a typo.....)

added metsmax when new worlds were opening and I wanted to grab a couple of spots

fd343ny was when I got my brother in law to play. He did for a while. Then he asked me to look after his teams. Then he said he was too busy.

No current or planned overlaps in any world.

If this is feasible and simple and *thorough* I am all for it. “Account:joesmith001 is related to account:jsmith by the following: shared credit card, shared device login, shared IP address.” etc. Could be set up to let the user(s) clarify relationship (same user, roommates, relatives, etc), but having the information open is generally helpful I think.

If it’s just relying on self reporting, then we have the same problems of only catching the non-cheaters as above.

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 1:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 12/14/2020 12:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 11:54:00 AM (view original):
“just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.”

If it is as simple as getting rid of the allowance, then I’m cool with it. But I don’t think it is. I don’t know of any way of doing this that doesn’t actually make CS life harder, and forum life much worse. If there is, I’m all ears.

perhaps. put it out 12 months to give folks time (and post on every conference board), maybe give some free credits to the folks impacted (assuming they won't move resumes around etc). i could be wrong, maybe its because i have 0 teams and it no longer impacts me, but from what i've seen, most of the folks who used to have multiple accounts simply don't coach at all anymore, and those who do largely moved away from from the 2 teams slowly after CS started caring 8 years ago. but i could be wrong. maybe its still a ton of people and would be a disaster.

The impact of this is almost entirely removing accounts from people who are already complying with FairPlay guidelines, folks who aren’t cheating. I assume someone who is trying to cheat using multiple accounts is not open about having multiple accounts. If an IP and/or CC check is put in place, VPN and a separate card can probably skirt those rules in most cases. So we’re left with the same situation we have now - the community reports suspicious behavior, and CS has to investigate the trail - except a whole lot of bad will and resentment gets thrown in on top of it.

It would be much better if folks would just play their own game. Accept that some people are always going to try to cheat; and realize this is an Internet game, and sometimes sin is its own punishment. Someone going to all the trouble of covering their tracks and operating incognito accounts to gain some slight edge in a recruit battle or two every season on a fake basketball game probably deserves my pity more than community vengeance.

I wouldn't even go this far. If you suspect cheating just report it, if you haven't liked the answers from CS in the past just email me directly. I will gladly investigate it, the integrity of our games is important, but I would like proof. What is a problem is throwing it up on the forums and making a public spectacle about the whole thing. That's where this could turn our amazing group of coaches, into a toxic polarizing community.

Posted by adlorenz on 12/14/2020 1:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 1:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 12/14/2020 12:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 11:54:00 AM (view original):
“just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.”

If it is as simple as getting rid of the allowance, then I’m cool with it. But I don’t think it is. I don’t know of any way of doing this that doesn’t actually make CS life harder, and forum life much worse. If there is, I’m all ears.

perhaps. put it out 12 months to give folks time (and post on every conference board), maybe give some free credits to the folks impacted (assuming they won't move resumes around etc). i could be wrong, maybe its because i have 0 teams and it no longer impacts me, but from what i've seen, most of the folks who used to have multiple accounts simply don't coach at all anymore, and those who do largely moved away from from the 2 teams slowly after CS started caring 8 years ago. but i could be wrong. maybe its still a ton of people and would be a disaster.

The impact of this is almost entirely removing accounts from people who are already complying with FairPlay guidelines, folks who aren’t cheating. I assume someone who is trying to cheat using multiple accounts is not open about having multiple accounts. If an IP and/or CC check is put in place, VPN and a separate card can probably skirt those rules in most cases. So we’re left with the same situation we have now - the community reports suspicious behavior, and CS has to investigate the trail - except a whole lot of bad will and resentment gets thrown in on top of it.

It would be much better if folks would just play their own game. Accept that some people are always going to try to cheat; and realize this is an Internet game, and sometimes sin is its own punishment. Someone going to all the trouble of covering their tracks and operating incognito accounts to gain some slight edge in a recruit battle or two every season on a fake basketball game probably deserves my pity more than community vengeance.

I wouldn't even go this far. If you suspect cheating just report it, if you haven't like the answers from CS in the past just email me directly. I will gladly investigate it, the integrity of our games is important, but I would like proof. What is a problem is throwing it up on the forums and making a public spectacle about the whole thing. That's where this could turn our amazing group of coaches, into a toxic polarizing community.

Yeah I don’t mean to imply folks shouldn’t report. My first response to people questioning stuff is usually “have you sent a ticket?” I just think we tend to think some of this stuff is structurally easier or simpler to fix than it actually is or will be. People do and should care about fair play, just not so much that we’re willing to burn it all to “catch” people who *could be* (but probably aren’t) actually cheating.

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/14/2020 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Well damn. And I thought Adam actually liked me. Haha

I guess you have to know me to get me. I'm not afraid to debate things. And if I lose (if there are such things as winners and losers in this situation), so be it! I'll still happily play this awesome game. Its awesome as is, and always has been. I guess there's just excitement surrounding the fact that there's discussions from CS period.

In reality, any changes are likely far and away, as far as time. I know myself, that I'm just talking out loud. The difference now is that I'm actually being heard. So I guess it becomes a little more real and serious. Not used to that.

Again, I love emy. I love any coach that comes to the forums to discuss things. I'm one that can scream and yell at you one minute and then buy you a beer the next. So for the 100th time, to anyone I offend or offended, I apologize. Directly to you emy, since I guess we're the two being discussed..... my bad little buddy.

I don't even see it in terms of winners and losers, we all have the same goal to grow the game and make it better. The problem is we all have different styles, backgrounds, beliefs, etc.

I do like you, and I can tell from how much you post, debated, and absorb information that you genuinely love this game. The problem I have is that in a situation like this, although harmless intentions, questioning the legitimacy and integrity of the game in a public forum, given that you are one of the respected folks on the boards puts a black spot on the game and ultimately hurts the game.

The FPGs do need to be revisited, I am not debating that, but in the meantime I would say that if there are situations of cheating/potential cheating talk to CS or me, I also like to debate :-). I'd hate to have a new player come to this thread and think emy is a cheater, and that we at WhatIfSports openly allows cheating, because a senior member of the community made a post like this. Because according to the rules right now, he isn't doing anything wrong.

But if someone is cheating and like I said have tools to investigate tell me, tell the CS team. It is no joke to me. I really do appreciate how much you care about the community.

Fair enough. I can dig that. But I never once said emy was cheating. I didn't even insinuate that he was cheating. My overall point was that it's just weird. Playing against yourself. Things like that.

I've literally NEVER even spoke to emy. But I respect him as a coach. If we look at my champions thread, I made note of his profiles collectively, the championships he's earned, and I moved him right up the ladder. He was like the second person that came to mind when I started recognizing the "coach" as well as the "profile" of a coach.

He just happened to be the coach in a random situation, that caught my attention. But I never once said cheating. This just got a little out of hand as far as the direction.

I just think it looks funny. That's much much different than someone accusing another of cheating.

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 1:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 12/14/2020 12:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 11:54:00 AM (view original):
“just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.”

If it is as simple as getting rid of the allowance, then I’m cool with it. But I don’t think it is. I don’t know of any way of doing this that doesn’t actually make CS life harder, and forum life much worse. If there is, I’m all ears.

perhaps. put it out 12 months to give folks time (and post on every conference board), maybe give some free credits to the folks impacted (assuming they won't move resumes around etc). i could be wrong, maybe its because i have 0 teams and it no longer impacts me, but from what i've seen, most of the folks who used to have multiple accounts simply don't coach at all anymore, and those who do largely moved away from from the 2 teams slowly after CS started caring 8 years ago. but i could be wrong. maybe its still a ton of people and would be a disaster.

The impact of this is almost entirely removing accounts from people who are already complying with FairPlay guidelines, folks who aren’t cheating. I assume someone who is trying to cheat using multiple accounts is not open about having multiple accounts. If an IP and/or CC check is put in place, VPN and a separate card can probably skirt those rules in most cases. So we’re left with the same situation we have now - the community reports suspicious behavior, and CS has to investigate the trail - except a whole lot of bad will and resentment gets thrown in on top of it.

It would be much better if folks would just play their own game. Accept that some people are always going to try to cheat; and realize this is an Internet game, and sometimes sin is its own punishment. Someone going to all the trouble of covering their tracks and operating incognito accounts to gain some slight edge in a recruit battle or two every season on a fake basketball game probably deserves my pity more than community vengeance.

agree completely

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 1:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 12/14/2020 12:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 11:54:00 AM (view original):
“just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.”

If it is as simple as getting rid of the allowance, then I’m cool with it. But I don’t think it is. I don’t know of any way of doing this that doesn’t actually make CS life harder, and forum life much worse. If there is, I’m all ears.

perhaps. put it out 12 months to give folks time (and post on every conference board), maybe give some free credits to the folks impacted (assuming they won't move resumes around etc). i could be wrong, maybe its because i have 0 teams and it no longer impacts me, but from what i've seen, most of the folks who used to have multiple accounts simply don't coach at all anymore, and those who do largely moved away from from the 2 teams slowly after CS started caring 8 years ago. but i could be wrong. maybe its still a ton of people and would be a disaster.

The impact of this is almost entirely removing accounts from people who are already complying with FairPlay guidelines, folks who aren’t cheating. I assume someone who is trying to cheat using multiple accounts is not open about having multiple accounts. If an IP and/or CC check is put in place, VPN and a separate card can probably skirt those rules in most cases. So we’re left with the same situation we have now - the community reports suspicious behavior, and CS has to investigate the trail - except a whole lot of bad will and resentment gets thrown in on top of it.

It would be much better if folks would just play their own game. Accept that some people are always going to try to cheat; and realize this is an Internet game, and sometimes sin is its own punishment. Someone going to all the trouble of covering their tracks and operating incognito accounts to gain some slight edge in a recruit battle or two every season on a fake basketball game probably deserves my pity more than community vengeance.

I'm not familiar with your knowledge of computers, nor am I trying to offend or put you down in anyway, however; this is something that is VERY easily implemented by several sites...etc that had much less income/resources than WiS at the start. I can create a website today, and do more to ensure 1 account per user.

Now, maybe the argument is that they missed their window to implement something like this, ahead of the other things they plan to do, and that would be fine. However; the argument that it's not feasible or reasonable without a huge impact on rule abiding players is largely false.

At the least, there would be transparency to those are utilizing a 2nd account/card/computer for a sibling or child...etc.. At most, it would would severely limit and reduce exploiting the rules... When someone pays money for a product, they do so with the idea that the game is going to do it's best to keep it's integrity. No new players are foaming at the mouth to join, especially not with "Well it's 4-5 seasons before you're even relevant, and there might be people cheating that could potentially make it harder, but we're not sure..."

Idk... I understand where you're coming from, but I think it's ill-informed.

I'll add that one of the most successful coaches in HD in recent history, is a kid... He was 15-16 years old when he started? JUST graduated high school and took a break to attend College.

It's not like we're talking some lucrative business opportunity here, or chance at serious booku bucks for winning. People aren't going out and getting new equipment, or flubbing credit cards to cheat.

Posted by lilspike0738 on 12/15/2020 8:23:00 AM (view original):
I'll add that one of the most successful coaches in HD in recent history, is a kid... He was 15-16 years old when he started? JUST graduated high school and took a break to attend College.

It's not like we're talking some lucrative business opportunity here, or chance at serious booku bucks for winning. People aren't going out and getting new equipment, or flubbing credit cards to cheat.

i'm a bit confused - if this is just a casual game, no real money at stake - why such a concern about tracking family members and credit cards and such from your above post?

Posted by lilspike0738 on 12/15/2020 8:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 1:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 12/14/2020 12:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/14/2020 11:54:00 AM (view original):
“just get rid of multiple team allowance, with some token for the folks impacted by it. its arguably bad for the game and its arguably stupid on the merits, but man, to not have to listen to these stupid threads for the rest of time... for your own sanity, i think its probably time. i always hate to let the whiners win but there has to be some accounting for how much CS time is wasted, how much these threads are negative for the community spirit, and whatever else.”

If it is as simple as getting rid of the allowance, then I’m cool with it. But I don’t think it is. I don’t know of any way of doing this that doesn’t actually make CS life harder, and forum life much worse. If there is, I’m all ears.

perhaps. put it out 12 months to give folks time (and post on every conference board), maybe give some free credits to the folks impacted (assuming they won't move resumes around etc). i could be wrong, maybe its because i have 0 teams and it no longer impacts me, but from what i've seen, most of the folks who used to have multiple accounts simply don't coach at all anymore, and those who do largely moved away from from the 2 teams slowly after CS started caring 8 years ago. but i could be wrong. maybe its still a ton of people and would be a disaster.

The impact of this is almost entirely removing accounts from people who are already complying with FairPlay guidelines, folks who aren’t cheating. I assume someone who is trying to cheat using multiple accounts is not open about having multiple accounts. If an IP and/or CC check is put in place, VPN and a separate card can probably skirt those rules in most cases. So we’re left with the same situation we have now - the community reports suspicious behavior, and CS has to investigate the trail - except a whole lot of bad will and resentment gets thrown in on top of it.

It would be much better if folks would just play their own game. Accept that some people are always going to try to cheat; and realize this is an Internet game, and sometimes sin is its own punishment. Someone going to all the trouble of covering their tracks and operating incognito accounts to gain some slight edge in a recruit battle or two every season on a fake basketball game probably deserves my pity more than community vengeance.

I'm not familiar with your knowledge of computers, nor am I trying to offend or put you down in anyway, however; this is something that is VERY easily implemented by several sites...etc that had much less income/resources than WiS at the start. I can create a website today, and do more to ensure 1 account per user.

Now, maybe the argument is that they missed their window to implement something like this, ahead of the other things they plan to do, and that would be fine. However; the argument that it's not feasible or reasonable without a huge impact on rule abiding players is largely false.

At the least, there would be transparency to those are utilizing a 2nd account/card/computer for a sibling or child...etc.. At most, it would would severely limit and reduce exploiting the rules... When someone pays money for a product, they do so with the idea that the game is going to do it's best to keep it's integrity. No new players are foaming at the mouth to join, especially not with "Well it's 4-5 seasons before you're even relevant, and there might be people cheating that could potentially make it harder, but we're not sure..."

Idk... I understand where you're coming from, but I think it's ill-informed.

i also think the exercise is just far more difficult than you are giving it credit for. almost no website or service i am aware of implements what you are talking about. you can run 2 accounts on gambling sites, news sites, sports sites, on high end video games, and virtually everything else i have seen on the internet.

i think you are extrapolating - or perhaps pontificating - without the experience of actually trying to fight such a thing. its not nearly as simple as you are suggesting, its actually pretty awful. sounds like you are thinking of a simple browser cookie implementation or something along those lines which is not close to a robust solution.

there's also all the edge cases - friends who play, or brothers, etc, who might share a device from time (or use at each others house to check their team etc). or maybe some guy asks some other guy for help. all those legitimate cases would have to be filtered out.

Wow...

Reading back thru this thread.... I made a reading mistake. I had said "well damn I thought Adam liked me". The message I was referring to was actually written by Gil, and not Adam.

It's well known that Gil and I wrestle like Hulk Hogan and Andre the giant. So the message i read incorrectly, now makes more sense to me

hmmm...I always pictured you as George "The Animal" Steele