I appreciate the ad hominem attacks from you two, but I would just like to point out that it's considered a logical fallacy.

Democracy is to us what christianity was in the middle ages (in a European context)...it feels so blasphemous to question any part of our 21st century conception of it. That emotion you're feeling, just realize you're feeling it because someone has questioned a religious belief you hold - even though you might not think of it as such. Cheers!

Posted by Guitarguy567 on 12/17/2020 10:28:00 AM (view original):
Question: do people who rent cars or own cars tend to take better care of their vehicle? Do people who rent or own houses/apts take better care of their property? (If you think this is in doubt find a realtor friend, someone who deals with rental properties, and just listen to the horror stories). While not equitable by any means, there's a certain wisdom in only letting landowners of sufficient means vote. They tend to take better care of the country since they're more invested in it. This is shocking blasphemy I know, but did you ever consider the fact that our founders were much smarter than 99.99% of people today? Just food for thought :)

Are you arguing that non-landowners are either too stupid to know what's good for the country or are intentionally taking it down a bad path?

You analogy falls apart. Landowners don't own the entire country. America is just as much for a homeless person as it is for a homeowner. The former doesn't or shouldn't have any more investment in our success than the latter.

And you do not want to go down the path of the original intent of the constitution. Jefferson, a smart man, recognized that the country could and should change. That's why we can amend the constitution. I could use your same argument against women voting or POC voting.

"Everybody knows.......the world is full of stupid people" (Roger Clyne from "Banditos" taken from the Refreshments CD "Fizzy, Fuzzy Big, and Buzzy")

And MANY of THEM own homes. (SOME of them have several).
Say I.

Posted by wylie715 on 12/16/2020 10:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/16/2020 9:18:00 PM (view original):
Majority of the country wants handouts? What about the majority of taxpayers? Hmmmm.....wonder what they think?

Um, the majority of the country ARE taxpayers.

um....really? Then I guess Tangplay's statement was incorrect. Thanks for pointing it out.

Posted by tangplay on 12/16/2020 10:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/16/2020 9:18:00 PM (view original):
Majority of the country wants handouts? What about the majority of taxpayers? Hmmmm.....wonder what they think?

Would love to see a poll, although the majority of the funds from these programs would come from a handful of uberwealthy people who probably wouldn't benefit as much from them.

Like, Jeff Bezos has zero reason to support universal healthcare. If I were Jeff Bezos, I would do everything possible to fight against it.

Wrong again. Jeff Bezos is likely indifferent. He just hires the best to give him personal care 24/7. Doesn't care what we peasants do. No a middle class family earning $400k per year is a different story. They likely would fight tooth and nail against it.

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/17/2020 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 12/16/2020 10:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/16/2020 9:18:00 PM (view original):
Majority of the country wants handouts? What about the majority of taxpayers? Hmmmm.....wonder what they think?

Um, the majority of the country ARE taxpayers.

um....really? Then I guess Tangplay's statement was incorrect. Thanks for pointing it out.

Huh? What was incorrect?

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/17/2020 11:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 12/16/2020 10:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/16/2020 9:18:00 PM (view original):
Majority of the country wants handouts? What about the majority of taxpayers? Hmmmm.....wonder what they think?

Would love to see a poll, although the majority of the funds from these programs would come from a handful of uberwealthy people who probably wouldn't benefit as much from them.

Like, Jeff Bezos has zero reason to support universal healthcare. If I were Jeff Bezos, I would do everything possible to fight against it.

Wrong again. Jeff Bezos is likely indifferent. He just hires the best to give him personal care 24/7. Doesn't care what we peasants do. No a middle class family earning $400k per year is a different story. They likely would fight tooth and nail against it.

Yes, but he would be taxed more to pay for it.

So he wouldn't get better healthcare, but would have to pay more in taxes.

Posted by tangplay on 12/17/2020 10:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Guitarguy567 on 12/17/2020 10:28:00 AM (view original):
Question: do people who rent cars or own cars tend to take better care of their vehicle? Do people who rent or own houses/apts take better care of their property? (If you think this is in doubt find a realtor friend, someone who deals with rental properties, and just listen to the horror stories). While not equitable by any means, there's a certain wisdom in only letting landowners of sufficient means vote. They tend to take better care of the country since they're more invested in it. This is shocking blasphemy I know, but did you ever consider the fact that our founders were much smarter than 99.99% of people today? Just food for thought :)

Are you arguing that non-landowners are either too stupid to know what's good for the country or are intentionally taking it down a bad path?

I am arguing neither. In fact, "I" do not exist within this argument at all. I'm trying to assess from their perspective. And then add a few examples that might or might not be applicable comparison, to try to better understand the logic. I appreciate your response. Ideas are fun to debate, especially ones that don't completely sit right at first, but may contain more truth than we initially feel they do.

Still, I believe direct democracy, especially in larger nations, is a form of govt that has a very definite shelf-life. Monarchies and Oligarchies and, heck, even Roman Style republics are packed with more "preservatives," if you will.

Posted by tangplay on 12/17/2020 11:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/17/2020 11:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 12/16/2020 10:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/16/2020 9:18:00 PM (view original):
Majority of the country wants handouts? What about the majority of taxpayers? Hmmmm.....wonder what they think?

Would love to see a poll, although the majority of the funds from these programs would come from a handful of uberwealthy people who probably wouldn't benefit as much from them.

Like, Jeff Bezos has zero reason to support universal healthcare. If I were Jeff Bezos, I would do everything possible to fight against it.

Wrong again. Jeff Bezos is likely indifferent. He just hires the best to give him personal care 24/7. Doesn't care what we peasants do. No a middle class family earning $400k per year is a different story. They likely would fight tooth and nail against it.

Yes, but he would be taxed more to pay for it.

So he wouldn't get better healthcare, but would have to pay more in taxes.

He doesn't care it also keeps people like you from looting his warehouses be he dares to be successful. He has plenty of CPA power to provide him with tax shields. His healthcare would not be worse.

Posted by tangplay on 12/17/2020 11:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/17/2020 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 12/16/2020 10:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/16/2020 9:18:00 PM (view original):
Majority of the country wants handouts? What about the majority of taxpayers? Hmmmm.....wonder what they think?

Um, the majority of the country ARE taxpayers.

um....really? Then I guess Tangplay's statement was incorrect. Thanks for pointing it out.

Huh? What was incorrect?

Two things:

1) You are a logical human being.

2) That most Americans want free ****.

You might be right about that. I'm real uncomfortable with taking the original ideas of the founding fathers and applying them directly to the modern day, as if they never wasted the country to change.

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/17/2020 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 12/17/2020 11:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/17/2020 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 12/16/2020 10:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/16/2020 9:18:00 PM (view original):
Majority of the country wants handouts? What about the majority of taxpayers? Hmmmm.....wonder what they think?

Um, the majority of the country ARE taxpayers.

um....really? Then I guess Tangplay's statement was incorrect. Thanks for pointing it out.

Huh? What was incorrect?

Two things:

1) You are a logical human being.

2) That most Americans want free ****.

Most Americans would be happy to take free stuff if it was offered to them. Do you really believe this is untrue? and there you go, trying not to offend anyone again! Good job!

Posted by wylie715 on 12/17/2020 12:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/17/2020 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 12/17/2020 11:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/17/2020 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 12/16/2020 10:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 12/16/2020 9:18:00 PM (view original):
Majority of the country wants handouts? What about the majority of taxpayers? Hmmmm.....wonder what they think?

Um, the majority of the country ARE taxpayers.

um....really? Then I guess Tangplay's statement was incorrect. Thanks for pointing it out.

Huh? What was incorrect?

Two things:

1) You are a logical human being.

2) That most Americans want free ****.

Most Americans would be happy to take free stuff if it was offered to them. Do you really believe this is untrue? and there you go, trying not to offend anyone again! Good job!

I do. I believe most Americans are hard working persons that want to earn a decent wage and have quiet enjoyment in terms of living. I do not mind paying higher taxes but I do not trust our Gov't to spend the monies wisely. Just more wasteful spending. Like I said, wylie, if politicians agreed to take a 25% pay cut due to COVID-19 I would be much more receptive to their ideas of shut downs, lockdowns, etc. But when your life doesn't change from a financial perspective its easy to say shut down and then advise to print more money to pay for the shutdowns (partially).

This is what people like tangplay want. Big Gov't to just spend wastefully and then blame those like Jeff Bezos for being successful and not sharing their wealth. While I give you grief, I believe you are a lot more logical than those like tangplay and we would probably agree more than we disagree when it comes to matters such as these.