Posted by Mwett on 1/21/2021 10:22:00 AM (view original):
Says the guy(dn8779) with 2x the normal Playoffs/Finals/Champs success as "normal". Hmmm; how'd that happen ?

A quick perusal of his current teams, all OL, shows as close as there is to the 1-trick pony copycat cookie-cutter style I despise as it gets. Mad much that your W/L success sheets are being yanked, and see the writing on the wall that it will eventually not be able to continue ?

YOU and your cohorts are the problem. YOU are what this thread and others similar are about and attempting to address and fix. YOU are why dynamic pricing will make a comeback. I don't care how much you've spent, you're a virus to this platform's health.

?The only thing you get is being the 1st of your type to lend your voice. Regardless, it counts 0 toward the lack of respect you've got coming, only a name that I can finally vent my full wrath. So take your '2cents' and concerns about "angering the current (fake fraud) base" and get lost, or at least try something fresh. Oh wait, dynamic pricing will take care of that, at which point you'll pout and hopefully leave, never to be missed.

Well, I guess I was once entitled to my good-faith opinion, and you're entitled to yours.

I think people forget what makes OL great. It's how fast they fill. You can draft a team and have it start the next day. This is why people play OLs more than anything else. Tiered OLs won't work because even a relatively low-threshold entirely changes this dynamic. For example, the threshold for Champs Leagues is just 5 WS appearances, not titles. An owner with 0 titles can play in Champs leagues, plus they have increased rewards, but even at their fastest it takes 3-4 weeks to fill a champs league, and there was a gap of 8 years between champs leagues filling at one point. Making a multi-tiered OL system would only compound this problem. People want their teams to play, not sit in leagues waiting weeks, months, or years to fill, as would be the case if this already existing tiering is expanded on in any fashion.

Next, we all want new owners to stick around, and I think it's somewhat unfair to attack owners (especially people like dn8779) as being predatory. There's a lot that goes into each OL and they're all unique. An identical team could win 120 in one league and 85 in the next. The biggest advantage over new owners is knowledge of sim workings, not IDing "cookie" players. There's a bunch of ways to win. I had a team with a winning record with an $8m pitching staff, made the playoffs with a 2003 Mariners twist team but only using other Mariner seasons, and won ~90 games with single season teams from 2019 and 2020. This has nothing to do with cookies or preying on new owners, but strictly from understanding how the sim works better than new owners do.

Sure, some players, like '02 Bernhard or '19 Marte, show up on a bunch of teams, but this just means you have an idea of what your opponents are using and gives you an advantage in trying to beat them. These guys aren't invincible or unbeatable. Drafting them doesn't guarantee a 100 win season and a WS title. Even if a new owner drafted them, they still aren't as likely to succeed.

Dynamic pricing doesn't change this balance either, owners who understand the sim better will be able to find "bargains" or "value" and still build teams that succeed just as frequently, but it keeps things fresh. New owners will still have the knowledge gap issue with dynamic pricing in place. That knowledge gap would increase if new owners were limited to leagues only with other new owners. Most OLs I'm in have frequent dialogues in the league boards from veteran owners offering tips and advice to newer owners. This feedback is way more valuable to newer owners than them waiting a week or more for the league to fill and then winning 85-90 games (and there will still be owners in there that lose 100+).

The change to recommended IP/PA and the addition of links to the FAQ/Advice for Newbies will go much further than any of the above proposed changes.

The only proposed change that might have an impact on retaining new owners, or at least helping close the knowledge gap faster, would be removing fake names for AAA (and the normalization to current season). Everything else proposed here doesn't even address the root issue, just a perception problem, or would create bigger problems (leagues never filling and owners dropping because they never get to see their teams play) than the ones we already have.

Posted by Mwett on 1/21/2021 10:22:00 AM (view original):
Says the guy(dn8779) with 2x the normal Playoffs/Finals/Champs success as "normal". Hmmm; how'd that happen ?

A quick perusal of his current teams, all OL, shows as close as there is to the 1-trick pony copycat cookie-cutter style I despise as it gets. Mad much that your W/L success sheets are being yanked, and see the writing on the wall that it will eventually not be able to continue ?

YOU and your cohorts are the problem. YOU are what this thread and others similar are about and attempting to address and fix. YOU are why dynamic pricing will make a comeback. I don't care how much you've spent, you're a virus to this platform's health.

?The only thing you get is being the 1st of your type to lend your voice. Regardless, it counts 0 toward the lack of respect you've got coming, only a name that I can finally vent my full wrath. So take your '2cents' and concerns about "angering the current (fake fraud) base" and get lost, or at least try something fresh. Oh wait, dynamic pricing will take care of that, at which point you'll pout and hopefully leave, never to be missed.

What gives? I sense some self-righteous anger here. If you don't like how people are playing within the perfectly legal parameters, then don't play, or politely petition the site to make changes. There is a segment of America that resorts to loudly shaming those they don't agree with. That is what you are doing, and it's not appropriate or even welcomed.

Posted by just4me on 1/21/2021 11:27:00 AM (view original):
I think people forget what makes OL great. It's how fast they fill. You can draft a team and have it start the next day. This is why people play OLs more than anything else. Tiered OLs won't work because even a relatively low-threshold entirely changes this dynamic. For example, the threshold for Champs Leagues is just 5 WS appearances, not titles. An owner with 0 titles can play in Champs leagues, plus they have increased rewards, but even at their fastest it takes 3-4 weeks to fill a champs league, and there was a gap of 8 years between champs leagues filling at one point. Making a multi-tiered OL system would only compound this problem. People want their teams to play, not sit in leagues waiting weeks, months, or years to fill, as would be the case if this already existing tiering is expanded on in any fashion.

Next, we all want new owners to stick around, and I think it's somewhat unfair to attack owners (especially people like dn8779) as being predatory. There's a lot that goes into each OL and they're all unique. An identical team could win 120 in one league and 85 in the next. The biggest advantage over new owners is knowledge of sim workings, not IDing "cookie" players. There's a bunch of ways to win. I had a team with a winning record with an $8m pitching staff, made the playoffs with a 2003 Mariners twist team but only using other Mariner seasons, and won ~90 games with single season teams from 2019 and 2020. This has nothing to do with cookies or preying on new owners, but strictly from understanding how the sim works better than new owners do.

Sure, some players, like '02 Bernhard or '19 Marte, show up on a bunch of teams, but this just means you have an idea of what your opponents are using and gives you an advantage in trying to beat them. These guys aren't invincible or unbeatable. Drafting them doesn't guarantee a 100 win season and a WS title. Even if a new owner drafted them, they still aren't as likely to succeed.

Dynamic pricing doesn't change this balance either, owners who understand the sim better will be able to find "bargains" or "value" and still build teams that succeed just as frequently, but it keeps things fresh. New owners will still have the knowledge gap issue with dynamic pricing in place. That knowledge gap would increase if new owners were limited to leagues only with other new owners. Most OLs I'm in have frequent dialogues in the league boards from veteran owners offering tips and advice to newer owners. This feedback is way more valuable to newer owners than them waiting a week or more for the league to fill and then winning 85-90 games (and there will still be owners in there that lose 100+).

The change to recommended IP/PA and the addition of links to the FAQ/Advice for Newbies will go much further than any of the above proposed changes.

The only proposed change that might have an impact on retaining new owners, or at least helping close the knowledge gap faster, would be removing fake names for AAA (and the normalization to current season). Everything else proposed here doesn't even address the root issue, just a perception problem, or would create bigger problems (leagues never filling and owners dropping because they never get to see their teams play) than the ones we already have.

just4me, the knowledge and input that you and many other experienced owners share is always appreciated and respected.

"I respectfully suggest that this game's developers save all the R & D funding that would be spent on re-writing the algorithm's code, altering salary caps, revamping dynamic pricing, etc., efforts that will make some customers temporarily happy but many more unhappy ultimately, and make a simple change to ease the new user's learning curve."

I just couldn't disagree with the above statement any more than I do!!

PLEASE, please consider a PROPER re-write of the algorithm, as well as CORRECTLY implementing a sound dynamic Pricing scheme. Had that been done correctly the 1st time we might have eliminated a LOT of these complaints already.
As written at present the "code" and the resulting enjoyment of playing WIS MLB has become antiquated and stale.
IT NEEDS an update to address the many issues the USERS have easily identified thru the years.

And, IMO, it somehow needs to improve realism without effecting the competitiveness and the fun.

Or, to get around the issue of experienced users starting dummy accounts to benefit from discounted teams, could the free exhibition season's length be extended beyond 10 games (maybe to 54 or 81 games)? Personally, I found early on that exhibition teams were helpful in gaining a general understanding of how the engine works, but the sample size of games was very small. Perhaps a larger sample size of risk-free games, without the all the full-/post-season entertainment provided, would give new users the chance to experiment in a workshop environment, so they can then bring their partially tested prototypes into a more competitive OL setting.

Many years ago free spring leagues were 30 game seasons. Ultimately, admin shortened them because owners were creating multiple aliases just to play a bunch of free 30 game seasons with no playoffs (I’ll admit, I was guilty of that - I was a poor college student and it was easy to create email addresses and sign up for a couple weeks entertainment. Though, I did learn tons about the sim before my first paid team and it definitely helped cement loyalty, so maybe it was worth it in the long run?).

I think you can do both and the current dev team seems committed to it.

A re-write is needed. Fix to dynamic pricing is needed. Helping new owners get past the initial learning curve is needed. Shaking things up to keep things fresh is needed.

We know the first two are being worked on, but they take time. They’ve taken steps on the last two already by adjusting the recommended IP/PA and putting the FAQ/Advice for Newbies threads in the draft center, and then by the creation of this thread that shows they’re thinking outside the box to mix it up. I am greatly appreciative, and am confident they’ll be able to take constructive feedback to do what will be the best changes to this game.

Posted by laramiebob on 1/21/2021 12:03:00 PM (view original):
"I respectfully suggest that this game's developers save all the R & D funding that would be spent on re-writing the algorithm's code, altering salary caps, revamping dynamic pricing, etc., efforts that will make some customers temporarily happy but many more unhappy ultimately, and make a simple change to ease the new user's learning curve."

I just couldn't disagree with the above statement any more than I do!!

PLEASE, please consider a PROPER re-write of the algorithm, as well as CORRECTLY implementing a sound dynamic Pricing scheme. Had that been done correctly the 1st time we might have eliminated a LOT of these complaints already.
As written at present the "code" and the resulting enjoyment of playing WIS MLB has become antiquated and stale.
IT NEEDS an update to address the many issues the USERS have easily identified thru the years.

And, IMO, it somehow needs to improve realism without effecting the competitiveness and the fun.

laramiebob, although your opinion differs from mine, I respect your logical argument (which lacked ad hominem vitriol).

Posted by Mwett on 1/21/2021 12:47:00 PM (view original):
Quote post by Area51man on 1/21/2021 11:31:00 AM:
"What gives? I sense some self-righteous anger here. If you don't like how people are playing within the perfectly legal parameters, then don't play, or politely petition the site to make changes. There is a segment of America that resorts to loudly shaming those they don't agree with. That is what you are doing, and it's not appropriate or even welcomed."

ME(Mwett) : Nope, I ain't going anywhere, but will continue to ferociously advocate for those with no remaining voice (and those yet to come), including 4 acquaintances from another old-timer SIM where we had legend status without the possibility or even desire to copycat previous success. They and no doubt many others you've adversely affected never knew what hit them here. YOU are why my friends and no doubt many others are no longer here. You think these posts about retaining new clientele and dynamic pricing come out of thin air ? That's YOU. So yeah, I'm p'd, and I'm here all week, and don't worry about what you consider appropriate or welcome. It works both ways, and if I'm the one that has to be more forceful than most about it, so be it. Playing pattycake hasn't worked, apparently for years. So you too go ahead and re-copy one of your current successful OL teams again while you still can.

Self-righteous indeed.

Mwett you gotta chill out man, this is supposed to be a fun way to pass the time, you sound like you want to lead the proles to seize the means of Open League production. I agree with your general points but you're taking it way too far.

Posted by Mwett on 1/21/2021 12:47:00 PM (view original):
Quote post by Area51man on 1/21/2021 11:31:00 AM:
"What gives? I sense some self-righteous anger here. If you don't like how people are playing within the perfectly legal parameters, then don't play, or politely petition the site to make changes. There is a segment of America that resorts to loudly shaming those they don't agree with. That is what you are doing, and it's not appropriate or even welcomed."

ME(Mwett) : Nope, I ain't going anywhere, but will continue to ferociously advocate for those with no remaining voice (and those yet to come), including 4 acquaintances from another old-timer SIM where we had legend status without the possibility or even desire to copycat previous success. They and no doubt many others you've adversely affected never knew what hit them here. YOU are why my friends and no doubt many others are no longer here. You think these posts about retaining new clientele and dynamic pricing come out of thin air ? That's YOU. So yeah, I'm p'd, and I'm here all week, and don't worry about what you consider appropriate or welcome. It works both ways, and if I'm the one that has to be more forceful than most about it, so be it. Playing pattycake hasn't worked, apparently for years. So you too go ahead and re-copy one of your current successful OL teams again while you still can.

"YOU are why my friends and no doubt many others are no longer here."

Really? So, I'm the problem now?? You really are looking to make someone pay for perceived injustices. Is the system perfect? Nope. Can you dislike how people work within the given parameters? Yes. Advocate for change. Don't throw people under the bus who are playing within the given parameters just so you can feel good about being a social justice warrior. You can advocate for change without being an arrogant *****. And don't worry about my OL motivations. I've won a grand total of one championship in the last 5 years, and only have mediocre success in them, so you really can't point fingers at my style or team composition. I'm only mediocre at this game. I've played 920 seasons with a measly 38 titles, probably half of them in gimmicky theme leagues - I wouldn't call that a beacon of success or pretend that is a reason that your buddies don't like this game. I agree that it would be cool for some changes to be made - but this isn't real life, participation trophies don't need to be handed out, and as much as customer retention is good for business, you just can't please everybody.

Don’t pay him any mind area51man.

even though he can sometimes have good ideas or make good points, his inability to craft his opinions without attacking or belittling others around him are why he’s forever blocked for me. If not for the re-quotes, I wouldn’t even know there was more vitriol being posted.

I set up a $75M Open League.

The only rule changes are real name AAA, and all ballparks are available, not just those in Open Leagues

MLB130559