It seems as if a lot of top teams run the press, sometimes solo and others in a combination, so in order to try and change it up for my team i've decided to try something I've never tried before- run two defenses. I normally practice anywhere from 22 - 30 minutes for my offense (always motion) and my defense (always man-2-man). For those that run two defense, how much time do you put into the three sets?



Is it worth it taking time from primary sets/individual time or should I stick with what I'm doing? I've noticed a slow drop off in the effectiveness of my sets.

If you have like 6 Seniors that have maxed out in speed,passing and the other categories then by all means go with 20 minutes each for all 3 defenses.
Now, with a younger team I might not concentrate quite as much on the IQ's in all 3 (offense and 2 defenses) and let them improve their foul shooting and defense etc. Maybe 16-18 minutes for each D but that is just how I do things with split defenses.
If I am playing against a great free throw shooting team then the half court press man would be preferable to the full court press because they would shoot fewer foul shoots(at least in theory).

Thanks. I'm going to boost press up to 20 and motion at 20 with m2m at 15 until my team gets their press IQ's up and then I'll switch minutes around to improve m2m.



Any other opinions?

I would love to know what you found?

now thats a necro!

you can definitely build teams with combo or 2 defense teams, but it adds another challenge, dealing with the starved practice minutes. i don't think such a thing was workable back when this thread started, but it is now. its definitely a veteran-only strategy though, newer coaches stay away!

the problem you'll have is anything close to 60 minutes of team practice is a huge amount. especially outside high d1, you are going to have a real problem maxing your players. some folks would say, just run 5-10 press and run combo - and that's fine. but if you really want to run straight man or straight press most of the time, like two true defenses, with maybe some combo here or there, you have to be at least 15 in both defenses every year IMO - and in general higher. when i ran zone OR press at a school, i was using 60 minutes consistently, but i think you could make it work in the 50-55 range, with like 18 per set or something, or 20 in your offense and 17 in each defense, something along those lines.

my assessment is that a 2 defense scheme is strictly inferior, but not by a huge amount. it can be pretty successful, and can be really interesting. i didn't let my own experiment go too far, but i was able to get 2 titles and 2 runner ups in my best 5 seasons out of my zone OR press experiment. that was high d1 though, and i was well positioned to deal with the practice minutes squeeze, i would try to win a few titles the regular way before taking on the additional challenge.

I have only tried this one time. I didn't like the practice minutes lost (and/or slowness of growth). I'm sure if you put 18-20 or so minutes in each .. it could be doable. If it was press and either Man or Zone you could play 3 different defenses. 1. Press, 2. Man/Zone or 3. one of the combo press/<man/zone> defenses

As I said .. I didn't like it so I stopped trying it. I do see people using it, so it does work.

What you lose in IQ growth, you gain in game plan flexibility. With the zone/press combo, you can run 2/3 zone, 3/2 zone, press, or either hybrid. That's 5 different defenses that you can use to exploit your opponent or strengthen your own weaknesses. Also, if you don't run fastbreak offense, you have 3 different tempos to play with. If you took the time to really master this system, I feel like it gives you a really good range of game planning options.

Posted by mlitney on 1/29/2021 2:47:00 PM (view original):
What you lose in IQ growth, you gain in game plan flexibility. With the zone/press combo, you can run 2/3 zone, 3/2 zone, press, or either hybrid. That's 5 different defenses that you can use to exploit your opponent or strengthen your own weaknesses. Also, if you don't run fastbreak offense, you have 3 different tempos to play with. If you took the time to really master this system, I feel like it gives you a really good range of game planning options.

I do get that part of it .. which is why on my zone teams, I do play both 3-2 and 2-3. It gives you a bunch of different looks and a wide range of things to do defensively (depending on whether your SF is a bigger slow rebounder (2-3 type) or a faster, non rebounder {a 3-2 type}.).

I usually have a backup SF that I can move into the lineup of the other type and play the other zone.

And certainly, adding press options to the mix could introduce even more variability. Which certainly can make it much harder to gameplan against in the post season.

I just find it hard to leave attribute growth on the table :)

Posted by mlitney on 1/29/2021 2:47:00 PM (view original):
What you lose in IQ growth, you gain in game plan flexibility. With the zone/press combo, you can run 2/3 zone, 3/2 zone, press, or either hybrid. That's 5 different defenses that you can use to exploit your opponent or strengthen your own weaknesses. Also, if you don't run fastbreak offense, you have 3 different tempos to play with. If you took the time to really master this system, I feel like it gives you a really good range of game planning options.

mlitney - are you suggesting taking all the hit in IQ development instead of player ratings? i think that is an interesting approach and could work for some folks.

bottom line - playing two defenses gives you a lot of options and a lot of opportunities for creative team planning, which is great. however, you will butt up against a nearly inescapable rule of team setup / game planning - you play your team first, and the opponent second.

what i mean by this is, generally speaking, the magnitude of the reasons to do things, based on your own team, generally surpass the magnitude of the reasons to do things based on your opponent, by a large factor. accordingly, there is almost no point where a well constructed press team is best suited by flipping to zone, and vice versa. there's a small overlap, but what i found myself, following good team building principles, is that i tended to really fluctuate my defense season over season. this year i was 12 deep and always pressed; the next i was 10 deep and almost always ran zone.

i know this may come across like a bit of a contradiction, given how pro-game planning and stuff i am in general. even though i'm one of the only coaches i know of who could successfully run 3 or 4 different lineups in the NT, that doesn't mean i was playing an extreme swashbuckling style, making changes of major magnitude based on my opponent. while i have run several different starting lineups over the course of a fairly large number of successful NT runs, all of those lineups tended to hit an extremely similar set of key points, with small, calculated variations made to achieve specific objectives.

the idea of a swashbuckler going from a slowdown zone one game to an uptempo press the next is probably just that. its most feasible with poorly crafted teams who don't really fit either scheme - but as you get better at team construction - those cases almost completely disappear. now again, it can be a lot of fun, and its a great learning exercise. so i think those are great reasons to do it, and you can definitely win championships with it (like almost any sub optimal strategy in HD - the inherent negatives aren't enough to make it un-viable from a title winning perspective - in this case, its not even close, i think this qualifies a serious strategy). i just wouldn't go in expecting full (or near-full) compensation from game planning variations it lets me run, because that is sort of incongruent with the fundamental realities of the sim engine. the bigger compensation is in season over season adjustments you can make, that others cannot.

Posted by mlitney on 1/29/2021 2:47:00 PM (view original):
What you lose in IQ growth, you gain in game plan flexibility. With the zone/press combo, you can run 2/3 zone, 3/2 zone, press, or either hybrid. That's 5 different defenses that you can use to exploit your opponent or strengthen your own weaknesses. Also, if you don't run fastbreak offense, you have 3 different tempos to play with. If you took the time to really master this system, I feel like it gives you a really good range of game planning options.

OK .. I decided to give this a try again on my 2 zone teams .. so we'll see how it goes :)

I imagine for the time being, I will play only press (or zone/press) if losing late in the game.

Other than the sheer novelty of it, man/press is by far the least attractive combination defense. I can't think of a single advantage.

zone/press offers many defensive combinations and the press aspect makes up for the weakness of zone defense - turnovers.

Posted by hughesjr on 2/2/2021 12:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mlitney on 1/29/2021 2:47:00 PM (view original):
What you lose in IQ growth, you gain in game plan flexibility. With the zone/press combo, you can run 2/3 zone, 3/2 zone, press, or either hybrid. That's 5 different defenses that you can use to exploit your opponent or strengthen your own weaknesses. Also, if you don't run fastbreak offense, you have 3 different tempos to play with. If you took the time to really master this system, I feel like it gives you a really good range of game planning options.

OK .. I decided to give this a try again on my 2 zone teams .. so we'll see how it goes :)

I imagine for the time being, I will play only press (or zone/press) if losing late in the game.

I like the press/zone quite a bit at D1, and it seemed to be fine at D3. I won two titles with it at D2, but I think it’s probably weakest there. That’s the level where it’s hardest to keep up with your press opponents who are getting full rosters of good recruits. To make it work at D2 where no one worries about early entries, you have to score some elite-for-level recruits. So it really takes you out of the running if you don’t get your targets. If you’re in a location where D1 teams are coming in hot on those #50-100 guys by position late in the first session, it’s tough to run a championship caliber press/zone team at D2.

Posted by utthead on 2/2/2021 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Other than the sheer novelty of it, man/press is by far the least attractive combination defense. I can't think of a single advantage.

zone/press offers many defensive combinations and the press aspect makes up for the weakness of zone defense - turnovers.

IMO if i was a mid major type i'd probably lean towards press/zone for the flexibility, but if i was an a+ elite focused on championships, i'd probably go the man/press route, because zone kinda sucks there (at least for most folks). the depth advantage of zone over man is pretty minimal, i think you basically play them about the same, run press if you have the depth, man if you don't, and you get to be a little more risky in recruiting.

one could argue you can get away with a persistently lessened focus on def or ath/def, in zone/press, but i am not particularly receptive to that argument at the high end either. you definitely have a bit more leeway in zone/press to eschew the ath/def paradigm, but you are still going to see the championship tier d1 teams press or zone teams sitting at 90 in both like you would for man.

i suppose i am just pointing out i don't buy the theoretical superiority of zone or press over man or press. i don't think either gives full compensation, really under any circumstance, but i think if you are going that route, both have merit. i think the biggest driver between the two is whether zone or man itself is a better fit for the level and style of play.

You are better off putting all your minutes into either press or man than you would be trying to run the press/man combo.

Posted by utthead on 2/6/2021 12:45:00 AM (view original):
You are better off putting all your minutes into either press or man than you would be trying to run the press/man combo.

Strictly as an exercise in calculations, you may be correct. But in the impact it could have on opponents game planning, maybe not. If your opponent game plans for you to play man and you press, that might tip the outcome.

For example, if they are not deep, press causes more fatigue and minutes by backup players. The fact is.. You can play Man (or zone if that is your second defense), or Press or the combo defense.

The wrinkle that puts into the mix could become important against certain teams and/or coaches.. At least in theory. In practice, we'll see.