Posted by bagger288 on 3/22/2021 8:00:00 PM (view original):
I don't see much of change in the jobs logic too me. Just spent a season at Missouri state, winning record, regular season conf champ. D Prestige, this is coming off of D2 4 out of 5 seasons NT 1st round and I barely qualify for C- maybe a few C jobs but nothing actually good as far as programs go in Tark. I dont see the big difference everyone is talking about.

EDIT : My guess is coaches are qualifying a letter grade above them so this is heavily effecting the mid major grind coaches. The ones that took C- maybe D+ programs to B- or B jobs and now they are snagging A- or A jobs. Previously you had to wait for those programs to die. Not real mad about that if its the case. Just means I need to get Missouri state into the C range and i'll pickup a good spot.

You can be hired for jobs that you're not qualified for now. Basically, from my understanding, if you have a certain number of seasons (10?), you'll qualify for most schools in D1, even when your agent tells you that you're not qualified.

With your resume, I believe you would be hired at any school that no other human has applied for.

Posted by gillispie1 on 3/22/2021 11:44:00 PM (view original):
somehow, someway, there has to be a way to make a little more casual version of HD to draw in users. recruiting outside of high d1, and probably even in high d1, requires a large number of hours to be spent to really optimize - and a lot of those in a few number of hours/days. really at any level, i think there is fairly clear and significant value to spending extra / a lot of time, whether its something like taking the extra couple hours to really carefully evaluate the recruit pool up front, or paying attention in depth each cycle - watching a meaningfully wide set of recruits for a deeper understanding of the field, your backup options, the going-ons of other teams you might bump into, and all that stuff. its also just way too hard at any level to do anything about lost dice rolls, at least without a lot of effort. at least IMO!

back in the day, there was meaningfully less recruiting competition in d2 and d3, compared to today, even with double the population and more. also, there was less watching cycle over cycle to see who was going to fall which way, where that meticulous paying attention cycle over cycle for an extended period paid real dividends. the main thing was prep work finding targets before recruiting opened, but then everyone at all levels basically jumped at the starting gun. even in d2/d3, most of your class could be more or less locked up by roughly a day in, and then not much later, signings hit, and the whole thing was quite often over. as a side note, this also helped keep the between-seasons period from getting TOO boring, although it still was for NT/jobs, because at least you had all of recruiting in there.

as a result, d2/d3 served as a refuge of sorts, for folks who just didn't want to fight for every inch, while d1 you had the more vigorous recruiting competition - so folks had a choice. also high d1 without the coin flips and all, it was probably a lot easier to coast there, so probably easier at all levels really to invest moderate time. and i'm not saying the changes are bad - because having all of recruiting end so quick for so many folks obviously had its downsides. but i do think its a lot harder to coast in recruiting today, and if you need to be checking every cycle for days, it really seems like in today's world, that should roughly be smart phone workable - and checking recruit progress for 25-50 guys every 6 hours for 4 days on a phone definitely isn't that. not necessarily everywhere - but at least somewhere in HD!

anyway, my point is this - this game takes quite a bit of effort - between recruiting, scheduling, practice planning... stuff that is both a lot for new coaches, and for a lot of reasonably tenured folks. i think there needs to be a version that is more accessible and casual, and not just for rookies. i think a full-effort version that is basically today's d1 makes sense, but i also think there fundamentally has to be a HD-lite somewhere in HD that is fun and compelling, but requires less effort, or at least penalizes less harshly for less effort. seble was aiming in that direction to some extent, but i think we actually went the other way - again, not complaining.

but really what i was aiming at, is i think RS2 needs to be a real session, to help with that in between period. maybe even have new recruits that nobody is already on, that come out after the first NT weekend or something, so folks have something to do. its bad enough the NT and jobs takes forever, but then it is bookended with a RS2 that is a significantly sub-par session for a lot of d1 teams, many of whom try their best to do the absolute minimum in RS2, and its awful for everyone in their 1st season everywhere. having most of the d2/d3 community waiting till RS2 to actually start signing players makes no sense to me either, that is just way too much time to spend preparing, and too little time spent signing. if d2 is that way, fine, but its TERRIBLE preparation for how d1 works, and its so inaccessible, so hard for new coaches to walk in and do well without investing a ton of effort.

but i'm fuzzy on a bunch of this, because i think there has to be a rethink somewhere. for example, i don't know that having 1 recruit pool and style for d1 and d2/d3 makes any sense, and frankly, i think its substantially the opposite. maybe have 1 division like d2 work like d2/d3, but have d3 actually distinct, with a much higher ratio of recruits to humans, so it is a lot less competition. d3 folks should only recruit from an exclusive d3 pool (no dipping down either), one which generates quality recruits in part in proportion with the human coaches instead of just total openings like now, and one which features an ample selection of solid, good, and very good players that are easy to pick up late in recruiting. but whatever the case - i think both RS2 needs a rethink, because it just sucks, but also just something needs to be done to make recruiting more casual for some segments of HD at least. that doesn't necessarily mean dumbing it down, but making it a little less brutal - a rough RS1 is just like, brutal for a newer d1 coach. RS2 should offer some path to redemption. so anyway, i kinda think the two issues are linked, the RS2 issues and the challenges with recruiting for both more casual and newer coaches.

lastly, i think the jobs change was the right spirit but not exactly ideal - i would have went for something more like, anyone - even someone with 0 experience in a world - can take any job up to d+ d1 or so. then any experience in the world unlocks higher levels of team, but making sure that decent low d1 success gives low d1 coaches a better shot than d2/d3 coaches with significantly more success on an objective basis. this way folks who slog through low d1 up to a b-/b don't get super frustrated by getting jumped over. and also nobody is forced into today's d2/d3, which some folks really like, but which is an absolute nightmare (bc of recruiting format) to many others. which division to play in should be a choice. i actually think a lot of new coaches would pick up d1 recruiting more easily, because d2/d3 now is so dependent on understanding who is likely to fall through, which you really have to watch carefully for a long time to start getting a hang of. sure, low d1 has this too, but at least you can start fighting from the gate and start getting feedback, none of this sitting around watching for all of RS1 and maybe some of RS2 trying to get a feel for what the heck is happening before even starting to bring in any players.

100% agree with you gil. I'll also add that zl33 had a good idea where you carry a portion of your former prestige with you to a new school. For example, if you build UNC Greensboro up to a B+ and then take over Nebraska (D+ prestige), then Nebraska would inherent some of UNC Greensboro's prestige and bump up to C+. That would make working your way up through D1 less of a "slog" and you would get to keep some of the prestige that you've earned. It makes sense because real coaches carry their prestige with them to a new job.

Posted by dunkonyou on 3/23/2021 8:17:00 AM (view original):
gillispie1: Overall great post. In particular that last paragraph is so spot on and absolutely nails it.

I feel that with this new make it easier to get to D1 push they are doing, they really need to do one thing in conjunction with it. (I think it is a good thing they are doing and think the new team programming and running WIS are a welcome breath of fresh air).

That one thing is to ramp up the firing process for D1 jobs. For the lower level D1 conferences and teams not much is needed. For the top 6 conferences and baseline prestige jobs above C+ there needs to be as transparent as possible guideline set up so there is an expectation of some success for a coach to keep a job at those schools. Make it up front that coaches moving up to the good D1 jobs know that they cannot stay there forever without some success at getting to the NT and at the highest of baseline prestige schools--a level of NT success. For example in the top 6 conferences Kentucky should have a higher expectation than Mississippi St and Michigan St should have a higher expectation than Northwestern etc. Coaches new to D1 teams should get a 3 season grace period and then the clock should start ticking. Otherwise with the number of D1 coaches coming into the game, jobs in the power 6 conferences will get very hard to get as unqualified coaches languish for 10 to 20 seasons at schools they are not succeeding at. Also give coaches that get fired their next season free. Simply let coaches new to D1 (like jumping from a D2 job into the Big 10) and current coaches already in D! know that yes you can move up much easier but there is a level of success expected after a period of time or some other coach will get a chance at that upper level D1 job.

I don't think we should call out coaches by name on here but without naming the world, in the first power 6 conference I looked at there is a coach who has been at Tennessee for 13 seasons and has never made the NT. There are many similar cases out there that need to be addressed.

This has to be a hard call for WIS, from a business standpoint, because if it becomes true that D1 jobs are consistently hard to get again, it is those “languishing” power 6 conference schools that are the most lucrative. The users willing and able to pay full price for the product consistently are, I would think, the most valuable customers. That’s not to say I don’t agree with the concerns about merit - IF it becomes true that D1 jobs are consistently hard to get again - just that WIS is probably going to be thinking about this from multiple angles, if that’s where we are.

IMO, the best of both worlds is if the mid major conferences are fully capable of producing real contenders on a consistent basis as well. And it appears to be the case so far, we’ll see how it works out with higher populations I guess, but the A10 in Smith and Phelan for example is playing like a top 3 conference.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 12/13/2020 10:09:00 AM (view original):
If we cut the time down (which I'm all for), I'd LOVE to see an option where a coach could apply to multiple jobs at a time and rank them from 1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice, etc. Right now if you apply for 4 jobs at once you'll get assigned one randomly. Applying for multiple at once and ranking them means you wouldn't have to log back in every few hours to re-apply for a new job (say, your third choice), if you were denied your first and second choices.

This is a really good idea.

Posted by A_B_G on 3/23/2021 2:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 12/13/2020 10:09:00 AM (view original):
If we cut the time down (which I'm all for), I'd LOVE to see an option where a coach could apply to multiple jobs at a time and rank them from 1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice, etc. Right now if you apply for 4 jobs at once you'll get assigned one randomly. Applying for multiple at once and ranking them means you wouldn't have to log back in every few hours to re-apply for a new job (say, your third choice), if you were denied your first and second choices.

This is a really good idea.

Ranked choice applying is definitely a great idea. I probably wouldn't use it because if I miss out on my 1st choice, I'd like to see which jobs have opened up before being automatically accepted to my 2nd choice. Although I guess it would depend how closely I've rated my 1st and 2nd choices.

Either way, this seems like a no-brainer QoL update.

And like I added to discord, 2 more QoL updates that won't affect game play or balance:
1. Make Player Roles unique to each world.
2. Add a few more colors for filtering recruits. I'm talking about how you can mark a recruit as Green, Blue, Yellow, Red.

Posted by mlitney on 3/23/2021 2:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by A_B_G on 3/23/2021 2:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 12/13/2020 10:09:00 AM (view original):
If we cut the time down (which I'm all for), I'd LOVE to see an option where a coach could apply to multiple jobs at a time and rank them from 1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice, etc. Right now if you apply for 4 jobs at once you'll get assigned one randomly. Applying for multiple at once and ranking them means you wouldn't have to log back in every few hours to re-apply for a new job (say, your third choice), if you were denied your first and second choices.

This is a really good idea.

Ranked choice applying is definitely a great idea. I probably wouldn't use it because if I miss out on my 1st choice, I'd like to see which jobs have opened up before being automatically accepted to my 2nd choice. Although I guess it would depend how closely I've rated my 1st and 2nd choices.

Either way, this seems like a no-brainer QoL update.

And like I added to discord, 2 more QoL updates that won't affect game play or balance:
1. Make Player Roles unique to each world.
2. Add a few more colors for filtering recruits. I'm talking about how you can mark a recruit as Green, Blue, Yellow, Red.

I like all these.

One more:

Let us set first cycle of AP before the first day of recruiting. Like preferably when scouting opens up, I mean why not?

Posted by gillispie1 on 3/22/2021 5:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bigham23 on 3/22/2021 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Seems like "unprecedented carousel movement" could be the new norm with the shift to making it easier to advance...

So my only concern here would be that once we adjust to this type of movement at the top of D1, do we need time for the 2nd & maybe 3rd clusters of dominoes to fall? I.e. the coaches who are new at UCLA, Ohio State, UConn, etc. presumably left good teams behind. Could the lack of movement after those changes be due to lower coaches not expecting so many good schools (presumably lower D1 and good D2) to now be both open and available to them?

I just applied to a job I'm def. not qualified for in Tark, but I'm expecting that if a more qualified coach gets it then I will take a look at the school he's leaving. I was able to jump from D3 to D2 in Tark after only 1 season (I assume with the other new job logic changes they also now consider your overall experience instead of only your experience in that world), and because I didn't expect to get a D2 job I didn't take any time to make sure I applied to good D2s (that's my excuse for my 3-24 season!).

With the new career logic, I think it definitely makes the most sense to bail on this team rather than go the slow/painful/rewarding rebuild route.
(especially since the slow/painful rebuild in Tark will hurt my overall W/L record and I'm assuming that will also hurt my chances of getting a good D1 job in another world).

to you final point, your success (or lack thereof) in one world has no impact on the jobs process in the others. you basically have 10 distinct, unrelated resumes, one per world.

I went straight to D2 in a world where I’d never coached a team. I assumed that was based on my experience in other worlds.

Posted by bigham23 on 3/24/2021 9:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 3/22/2021 5:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bigham23 on 3/22/2021 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Seems like "unprecedented carousel movement" could be the new norm with the shift to making it easier to advance...

So my only concern here would be that once we adjust to this type of movement at the top of D1, do we need time for the 2nd & maybe 3rd clusters of dominoes to fall? I.e. the coaches who are new at UCLA, Ohio State, UConn, etc. presumably left good teams behind. Could the lack of movement after those changes be due to lower coaches not expecting so many good schools (presumably lower D1 and good D2) to now be both open and available to them?

I just applied to a job I'm def. not qualified for in Tark, but I'm expecting that if a more qualified coach gets it then I will take a look at the school he's leaving. I was able to jump from D3 to D2 in Tark after only 1 season (I assume with the other new job logic changes they also now consider your overall experience instead of only your experience in that world), and because I didn't expect to get a D2 job I didn't take any time to make sure I applied to good D2s (that's my excuse for my 3-24 season!).

With the new career logic, I think it definitely makes the most sense to bail on this team rather than go the slow/painful/rewarding rebuild route.
(especially since the slow/painful rebuild in Tark will hurt my overall W/L record and I'm assuming that will also hurt my chances of getting a good D1 job in another world).

to you final point, your success (or lack thereof) in one world has no impact on the jobs process in the others. you basically have 10 distinct, unrelated resumes, one per world.

I went straight to D2 in a world where I’d never coached a team. I assumed that was based on my experience in other worlds.

my understanding is this is impossible - unless perhaps it happened in the past couple weeks, since the job change. but i don't think the job change allowed this. unless it was in the past couple weeks, im guessing you played previously in that world and just forgot? what world, what id?

Generally, i like that it's easier to move up to Div-1 faster, and that it's easier to find jobs.

Posted by gillispie on 3/25/2021 1:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bigham23 on 3/24/2021 9:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 3/22/2021 5:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bigham23 on 3/22/2021 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Seems like "unprecedented carousel movement" could be the new norm with the shift to making it easier to advance...

So my only concern here would be that once we adjust to this type of movement at the top of D1, do we need time for the 2nd & maybe 3rd clusters of dominoes to fall? I.e. the coaches who are new at UCLA, Ohio State, UConn, etc. presumably left good teams behind. Could the lack of movement after those changes be due to lower coaches not expecting so many good schools (presumably lower D1 and good D2) to now be both open and available to them?

I just applied to a job I'm def. not qualified for in Tark, but I'm expecting that if a more qualified coach gets it then I will take a look at the school he's leaving. I was able to jump from D3 to D2 in Tark after only 1 season (I assume with the other new job logic changes they also now consider your overall experience instead of only your experience in that world), and because I didn't expect to get a D2 job I didn't take any time to make sure I applied to good D2s (that's my excuse for my 3-24 season!).

With the new career logic, I think it definitely makes the most sense to bail on this team rather than go the slow/painful/rewarding rebuild route.
(especially since the slow/painful rebuild in Tark will hurt my overall W/L record and I'm assuming that will also hurt my chances of getting a good D1 job in another world).

to you final point, your success (or lack thereof) in one world has no impact on the jobs process in the others. you basically have 10 distinct, unrelated resumes, one per world.

I went straight to D2 in a world where I’d never coached a team. I assumed that was based on my experience in other worlds.

my understanding is this is impossible - unless perhaps it happened in the past couple weeks, since the job change. but i don't think the job change allowed this. unless it was in the past couple weeks, im guessing you played previously in that world and just forgot? what world, what id?

it was in the last few weeks. (Conf. tourney finals are tomorrow & it’s a 1x world)

This ID & Rupp. I also jumped from D3 to D2 after only one season in D3 in Tark, which I didn’t expect to be able to do.

at first I thought it must’ve been Rupp that I played 2 seasons in a long time ago, but it says “unemployed - Crum” on the my teams drop down, so that makes me think it was Crum that I played in before.

Posted by bigham23 on 3/25/2021 7:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 3/25/2021 1:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bigham23 on 3/24/2021 9:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 3/22/2021 5:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bigham23 on 3/22/2021 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Seems like "unprecedented carousel movement" could be the new norm with the shift to making it easier to advance...

So my only concern here would be that once we adjust to this type of movement at the top of D1, do we need time for the 2nd & maybe 3rd clusters of dominoes to fall? I.e. the coaches who are new at UCLA, Ohio State, UConn, etc. presumably left good teams behind. Could the lack of movement after those changes be due to lower coaches not expecting so many good schools (presumably lower D1 and good D2) to now be both open and available to them?

I just applied to a job I'm def. not qualified for in Tark, but I'm expecting that if a more qualified coach gets it then I will take a look at the school he's leaving. I was able to jump from D3 to D2 in Tark after only 1 season (I assume with the other new job logic changes they also now consider your overall experience instead of only your experience in that world), and because I didn't expect to get a D2 job I didn't take any time to make sure I applied to good D2s (that's my excuse for my 3-24 season!).

With the new career logic, I think it definitely makes the most sense to bail on this team rather than go the slow/painful/rewarding rebuild route.
(especially since the slow/painful rebuild in Tark will hurt my overall W/L record and I'm assuming that will also hurt my chances of getting a good D1 job in another world).

to you final point, your success (or lack thereof) in one world has no impact on the jobs process in the others. you basically have 10 distinct, unrelated resumes, one per world.

I went straight to D2 in a world where I’d never coached a team. I assumed that was based on my experience in other worlds.

my understanding is this is impossible - unless perhaps it happened in the past couple weeks, since the job change. but i don't think the job change allowed this. unless it was in the past couple weeks, im guessing you played previously in that world and just forgot? what world, what id?

it was in the last few weeks. (Conf. tourney finals are tomorrow & it’s a 1x world)

This ID & Rupp. I also jumped from D3 to D2 after only one season in D3 in Tark, which I didn’t expect to be able to do.

at first I thought it must’ve been Rupp that I played 2 seasons in a long time ago, but it says “unemployed - Crum” on the my teams drop down, so that makes me think it was Crum that I played in before.

You had two seasons at Ozarks in D3 Rupp prior to picking up your D2 team.

This ID & Rupp. I also jumped from D3 to D2 after only one season in D3 in Tark, which I didn’t expect to be able to do.

Just FYI, you only need 1 season of D3 to qualify for any D2 job. It's always been that way (or at least since 3.0).

if you do badly in d3 you can barely qualify for d2, its definitely not 'any d3 season = jump to any d2 job', at least not prior to a couple weeks ago (maybe it is now?)

Posted by gillispie on 3/26/2021 11:42:00 AM (view original):
if you do badly in d3 you can barely qualify for d2, its definitely not 'any d3 season = jump to any d2 job', at least not prior to a couple weeks ago (maybe it is now?)

Ahh, I didn't know that. I probably have 6 career seasons at D3 haha. The few times I did play at D3, I always took over a decent team knowing that I wasn't going to stay so I guess that's why my experience is different.

Posted by mlitney on 3/26/2021 12:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 3/26/2021 11:42:00 AM (view original):
if you do badly in d3 you can barely qualify for d2, its definitely not 'any d3 season = jump to any d2 job', at least not prior to a couple weeks ago (maybe it is now?)

Ahh, I didn't know that. I probably have 6 career seasons at D3 haha. The few times I did play at D3, I always took over a decent team knowing that I wasn't going to stay so I guess that's why my experience is different.

testing stuff has led me to some bad d3 seasons. example - this one only qualifies for 6 jobs in rupp d2 right now


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