Posted by reddtrain on 5/9/2021 8:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bheid408 on 5/8/2021 2:53:00 PM (view original):
Things I am thinking about:
Everyone drafts 3 Teams from the 1970, 1990, 2010 seasons. 72 of the 80 Teams would be used if it is a 24 Team league. You take 10 players from each with 5 going to AAA.
Random Salary Cap each season, (maybe within a range of $80M to $130M) so some years you can roster just about anyone and some years you have to choose average players instead of just taking all of the best players.
Each subsequent Season, some Teams get swapped and/or dropped depending on your finish within a division or if you make the Playoffs/World Series. Any new drafts would be done Best/First to Worst/Last to eliminate tanking.
A Player Twist or two is allowed, again depending on circumstances.
1 Player from 1920-1960 is added to everyone's roster, you choose which version to use of that player.
A Blacklist of 1 season for Award Winners of the previous season.
A revamped Injury feature that is more like real life and players actually have to sit out games or even entire seasons due to those injuries.
Everyone in the same division uses the same stadium. You have to win your division to change your Stadium.

You could probably go ahead and sign me up for that one.

If I draft the 2010 Rangers in the initial draft, do I have the 2010 Rangers in season 2? Or do I have the 2011 Rangers?

Personal preference - I'd like to see the minimum possible salary cap lower than $80M. Even $70M would present an entirely different challenge.

It would progress so you'd go to the 2011 Rangers.

Posted by reddtrain on 5/8/2021 10:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by contrarian23 on 5/8/2021 8:31:00 AM (view original):
My inclination is to say that any player for whom you placed a bid to draft has a no-trade clause until the bid has been fully paid.

That is probably the simplest answer.

Couple other things:

1) Fast forward to the 1967 draft. I decide I NEED Dick Hughes. Am I limited to bidding 2/2 for him (because he only has 2 SIM seasons)?

2) Keep it in 1967. I bid 0/3 for a draft pick. I still have a 1st round pick in 1968, so I should be able to participate in the auction. Am I allowed to bid 2nd round picks in 1968 (to go further into the future)? Or will I not be allowed to bid 2nd picks until 1970?

reddtrain, your questions have been VERY helpful in clarifying loopholes, thank you. I have made some revisions to how the process would run. Everyone should please note that I am _not_ planning on starting this league at this time. It is just an idea that I have been thinking about. I loathe - and will not join - any progressive that uses reverse-order-of-finish drafting, even with lotteries, wins floors, etc. Most of the progs that I start use some form of purely random draft orders. I have also played several progs that use some sort of formula that rewards winning compared to salary. But I have been wanting for some time to play in a progressive in which everyone is theoretically able to draft, say, Babe Ruth, depending on how badly they want him. Anyway, here's the revised concept:

1. Before the start of each draft, including the inaugural draft, each owner will submit a bid for the rights to get the #1 pick in the draft. A hall of fame owner who is not in our league will serve as the clearinghouse for all bids.
2. The bid will include 2 numbers. The first number will be how many subsequent seasons you are willing to forgo a #1 draft pick. The second number will be how many subsequent seasons you are willing to forgo a #2 draft pick. The first number must be greater than or equal to the second number. Bids of 5/0, 4/3, 2/2, and 0/0 are allowed. Bids of 0/5, 3/5, or 1/3 are not allowed. Any owner who does not submit a bid by the deadline is assumed to be bidding 0/0.
3. The maximum bid is 5/5.
4. The first round draft order for each season will be as follows: teams will be listed in descending order based on their first auction number. Ties will be broken by the second auction number. If there are still ties, they will be broken by a random drawing.
5. Owners should bid very carefully. You are bidding on first round draft order slots, not players. Each team will forgo the number of future first and second round picks that they have bid, regardless of whether the player they hoped to draft is still available. Meaning they will not be allotted draft picks in those rounds in the associated seasons.
6. Any player selected in the first round will have a ‘no trade and no cut’ clause for the duration of the bid. The ‘duration of the bid’ will be considered the first number of the bid. So a bid of 2/1 means a no-trade clause for 2 seasons. A bid of 5/5 will mean a no-trade clause for 5 seasons, etc. In the extremely unlikely case that an owner selects a player whose WIS career is shorter than the bid, the owner will submit gift certificates to the commissioner as collateral against the owner leaving the team prior to end of the bid. Those GCs will be used to either pay for that owner’s teams in the relevant seasons, or will be used to compensate a replacement owner for taking over the team. Example: an owner bids 4/0 and drafts a player who has only 2 WIS seasons. He will buy 2 GCs and submit them to the commissioner. Assuming the owner stays in the league long enough to play seasons 3 and 4, those GCs will be used to pay for his teams.
7. It is assumed that an owner will plan to keep his team as long as he has any forgone draft picks. However, if that is not possible and a new owner joins the league, they will have the option of either keeping the team as is (including the lost draft picks) OR releasing any previous first round draft picks that are still being paid for, in exchange for recovering the previously lost picks.
8. As an example, suppose that in the inaugural draft, the 12 teams bid as follows:

Team	First Bid Number	Second Bid Number
A	3	3
B	0	0
C	5	2
D	0	0
E	0	0
F	5	1
G	0	0
H	0	0
I	0	0
J	3	0
K	3	0
L	4	4

In this scenario, Team C will get the #1 pick in the inaugural draft. Teams C and F both bid 5 first round picks, while Team C bid 2 second round picks compared to Team F who only bid 1. So Team C gets the #1 pick, Team F gets the #2 pick. Team L will get the 3^rd pick. Team A will get the 4^th pick – by virtue of bidding 3 second round picks compared to teams J and K who bid zero second round picks. A random drawing will determine which of teams J and K pick 5^th versus 6^th. And another random drawing will determine how the 7^th-12^th picks are distributed among teams B, D, E, G, H, I.

9. All teams must then “pay” their bids. So team C will forgo a first round pick for seasons 1931-35, along with a second round pick in 1931-32. Team F will forgo a first round pick in seasons 1931-35 and a second round pick in 1931. Team A will forgo a first round pick in 1931-33 and a second round pick in seasons 1931-33. The six teams that bid 0/0 will not forgo any picks.

10. Each season, only teams that HAVE a first round pick will be allowed to bid for the #1 overall pick. Note that in the example above, the first round of the 1931 draft will have only six slots, since the other six teams have forgone their #1 pick for 1931. This introduces a tremendous amount of strategy into the bidding process.

11. Subsequent rounds of the draft will be serpentine. Teams that do not have a 2^nd round pick will be removed from the round 2 order but will maintain their specified place for all subsequent rounds.

12. Very important: Because of our unique bidding rules, teams are NOT ALLOWED to trade 1^st or 2^nd round draft picks at any time. 3^rd and subsequent round picks may be traded.

Far to complicated for the average WIS player

Posted by jeff4noles on 5/10/2021 1:20:00 PM (view original):
Far to complicated for the average WIS player

And definitely not intended for the average WIS player. If I decide to start this league it will be by invitation only to owners who are highly experienced in progressives an up for a challenge.

I can envision everyone bidding 5/5 for Babe Ruth, if everyone has all of their bids left.

I like the idea of bidding for draft position, I don't like the idea of bidding for the #1 spot, not getting it for the cost you bid and still having to pay for it.
Would a point system be better whereby you have so many points and use those points on each draft slot separately, say 100 points total, You maybe bid 15 points for the #1 draft slot, 8 points for the #2 draft slot, 7 points for #3 and so on... If you don't get the draft position you bid on those points would be returned to you. Maybe only the first round is open for bids. Can't see where too many bids would be made for the later slots. It would be up to you if you used any or all of your points. Points you don't use or are returned to you could be carried forward to the next season. If Ruth, Bonds, Kershaw are coming in the draft in a few years I can see some strategy in play as owners would start to save points in the seasons before. Some seasons that have poor draft classes would do the same thing. Other seasons that are loaded with talent would create some high levels of aggressive bidding even for the middle slots in the 1st round. Ties could be sent back for re-bids to those involved and they must raise their bid or just determined randomly.

One of my favorite leagues I ever played was toddleduc’s Free agent progressive. It used a bid system, each team started with a base, and then you could earn more through trades or certain performance levels. Teams could bid no more than they had, and were required to fill a 25 man roster. So if I needed 7 players, and have 100 points available, the most I could bid on 1 player would be 94. Every day, owners would send a sitemail to the commissioner with their bids, with players separated out by position (day 1 is Catchers, day 2 1st base, etc), so you need to plan accordingly. If you want Babe Ruth, you need to ensure you have the credits available when it gets to his position. Or maybe you count on everyone going for Ruth so you can stockpile 4-5 other positions with the same value. Only the team with the winning bid would lose the credits, all losing bids would be returned.

in that league, players were put on contracts depending on how many credits they cost. 1 credit = 1 year contract, 2-5 credits = 2 years, 6-10 credits =3 years, 11-15 credits =4 years, 16-20 credits = 5 years, 21-25 credits = 6 years, 26+ Credits = 7 years later.

This was an insane amount of fun, the bidding process was more exciting than any draft, and it allowed for a constant flood of talent as contracts ended, and babe Ruth goings back into the free agency draft after 1925.

Here’s a post from this leagues thread which I still have access to: I misremembered some of the rules, or they may have changed over time but here they are.

LEAGUE RULES

* All teams will have $100 Milion Salary Cap of Auction Money per team each Season. We'll roll out 30-40 players each day from the 2001 database up for bid in a Silent Auction via sitemail. Bids will be in $100K minimum increments and due at midnight (EST) each night. Whoever bids the highest on that player wins that player and holds that player's rights for up to 5 years at the annaul salary that you won your player for. So if you won Pujols for $9 million- you would play him $9 million each year up to 5 years, unless you cut him sooner than the 5 year period. No Home-town resigning preference- ALL players after 5 years (or sooner if cut) become Free agents for all teams to bid on. So eventually guys like Puljos, Votto, Hamilton, Verlander, Strasburg, Harper, ect. will go back on the open market and up for Auction again every 5 years or sooner.

* Going into 2002 we will bid on 2002 Rookies & Free Agents with what money you have left in our $100 million budgets after our 2002 payroll is calculated. Everyone will be allowed to carry up tp 33 players at one time. If you go broke, we'll hold a (AAA) draft at the very end of the Auction where teams will Draft and sign up to 33 total remaining players fill out their Roster to max 1 year contracts.

************************************************************************************************************************************************************

$10 million Rollover allowed each Season
If you have any extra cash left after each season you will be allowed to roll it over into the next Season's Budget.
$110 million asolute max Budget allowed going into each season's Auction, though.

* That way everyone is encouraged to go for it every year & to avoid any teams from stockpiling more than $110 million.

Winning Bid is Player's Annual Salary

However much you won your player for will be their salary for the duration of the contract you decide to keep them for. If for example you won Albert Pujols for $8.5 million and wanted to sign him to a 5 year deal, he would make $8.5 million of your $100 million budget in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005. On the flip side- if you win a player for $100 K that has an awesome 2003 season, you can sign him for 3 years at $100 K a season, so there will be some interesting strategy involved in who you bid on & how much.

* Players receiving NO Bids will be rolled out again at the very end of the Auction for guys that may need filler players. Day 21 will be for owners who still have cash to spend, Day 22- Draft up to 33 players - draft order determined by (1) Who if anyone has the most $$ remaining Drafts first.
(2) Who went broke the last. (3) If 2 or more people went broke the same day- I'll do a random.org to decide the Draft Order.

I love it! That kind of league is more work than I am willing to do as commissioner, but I would certainly play in it if it existed.

Re: the idea I have been sharing in this thread, I am 100% certain we would not have 12 owners bidding 5/5 for the #1 spot in 1915... since each of them would realize there’s an 11/12 chance they end up giving those picks away for effectively nothing. Well, 1 owner would get Hornsby as a consolation prize. The other ten have accomplished nothing other than to give up 10 future picks. If I were bidding, I would probably bid 0/0...

The dialogue in this thread has been excellent and helpful, and has absolutely convinced me that the requirement that everyone has to pay their bid, no matter how it turns out, is crucial to the whole concept.

Posted by contrarian23 on 5/11/2021 11:40:00 AM (view original):
I love it! That kind of league is more work than I am willing to do as commissioner, but I would certainly play in it if it existed.

Re: the idea I have been sharing in this thread, I am 100% certain we would not have 12 owners bidding 5/5 for the #1 spot in 1915... since each of them would realize there’s an 11/12 chance they end up giving those picks away for effectively nothing. Well, 1 owner would get Hornsby as a consolation prize. The other ten have accomplished nothing other than to give up 10 future picks. If I were bidding, I would probably bid 0/0...

I'm thinking that, for most seasons in most situations, the only winning move is not to play.

This reminds me of another theme that I played in once or twice (though it was not progressive). Each team, upon entering, would submit (as well as a stadium) a search from the draft center with 24-30ish results, and that would be one draft pool. You could only wind up with both pitchers and hitters in the same pool if you selected a team. There would be 25 draft pools (the commish analyzed what was needed and provided the last one), then each team was given 1000 points to divvy up between drafts for the 25 players and the stadiums. You'd have some really good player pools, some extremely varied player pools, and some that were just not that useful.

Posted by chargingryno on 5/11/2021 11:04:00 AM (view original):
Here’s a post from this leagues thread which I still have access to: I misremembered some of the rules, or they may have changed over time but here they are.

LEAGUE RULES

* All teams will have $100 Milion Salary Cap of Auction Money per team each Season. We'll roll out 30-40 players each day from the 2001 database up for bid in a Silent Auction via sitemail. Bids will be in $100K minimum increments and due at midnight (EST) each night. Whoever bids the highest on that player wins that player and holds that player's rights for up to 5 years at the annaul salary that you won your player for. So if you won Pujols for $9 million- you would play him $9 million each year up to 5 years, unless you cut him sooner than the 5 year period. No Home-town resigning preference- ALL players after 5 years (or sooner if cut) become Free agents for all teams to bid on. So eventually guys like Puljos, Votto, Hamilton, Verlander, Strasburg, Harper, ect. will go back on the open market and up for Auction again every 5 years or sooner.

* Going into 2002 we will bid on 2002 Rookies & Free Agents with what money you have left in our $100 million budgets after our 2002 payroll is calculated. Everyone will be allowed to carry up tp 33 players at one time. If you go broke, we'll hold a (AAA) draft at the very end of the Auction where teams will Draft and sign up to 33 total remaining players fill out their Roster to max 1 year contracts.

************************************************************************************************************************************************************

$10 million Rollover allowed each Season
If you have any extra cash left after each season you will be allowed to roll it over into the next Season's Budget.
$110 million asolute max Budget allowed going into each season's Auction, though.

* That way everyone is encouraged to go for it every year & to avoid any teams from stockpiling more than $110 million.

Winning Bid is Player's Annual Salary

However much you won your player for will be their salary for the duration of the contract you decide to keep them for. If for example you won Albert Pujols for $8.5 million and wanted to sign him to a 5 year deal, he would make $8.5 million of your $100 million budget in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005. On the flip side- if you win a player for $100 K that has an awesome 2003 season, you can sign him for 3 years at $100 K a season, so there will be some interesting strategy involved in who you bid on & how much.

* Players receiving NO Bids will be rolled out again at the very end of the Auction for guys that may need filler players. Day 21 will be for owners who still have cash to spend, Day 22- Draft up to 33 players - draft order determined by (1) Who if anyone has the most $$ remaining Drafts first.
(2) Who went broke the last. (3) If 2 or more people went broke the same day- I'll do a random.org to decide the Draft Order.

I am going to seriously think about this..... I may want to tweak it a bit but I like the concept.

Definitely keep me posted if you do. The contract/bidding process was a ton of fun and it kept a balance year after year.

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=492016

heres a post from the same owner- this league didn’t fill but you can see similar rule sets and how it would play out

Posted by chargingryno on 5/11/2021 10:52:00 AM (view original):
One of my favorite leagues I ever played was toddleduc’s Free agent progressive. It used a bid system, each team started with a base, and then you could earn more through trades or certain performance levels. Teams could bid no more than they had, and were required to fill a 25 man roster. So if I needed 7 players, and have 100 points available, the most I could bid on 1 player would be 94. Every day, owners would send a sitemail to the commissioner with their bids, with players separated out by position (day 1 is Catchers, day 2 1st base, etc), so you need to plan accordingly. If you want Babe Ruth, you need to ensure you have the credits available when it gets to his position. Or maybe you count on everyone going for Ruth so you can stockpile 4-5 other positions with the same value. Only the team with the winning bid would lose the credits, all losing bids would be returned.

in that league, players were put on contracts depending on how many credits they cost. 1 credit = 1 year contract, 2-5 credits = 2 years, 6-10 credits =3 years, 11-15 credits =4 years, 16-20 credits = 5 years, 21-25 credits = 6 years, 26+ Credits = 7 years later.

This was an insane amount of fun, the bidding process was more exciting than any draft, and it allowed for a constant flood of talent as contracts ended, and babe Ruth goings back into the free agency draft after 1925.

I believe this was based off of the first league I ever ran. It was called the Kingfiz CDL(Contract Draft League). I was contemplating restarting it. I still have access to the original forum. The oldest post in there is from 2007. Toddleduc was one of the original owners in my league I believe. I wish WIS allowed access to the really old posts that they deleted.

Posted by epup1975 on 5/12/2021 1:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by chargingryno on 5/11/2021 10:52:00 AM (view original):
One of my favorite leagues I ever played was toddleduc’s Free agent progressive. It used a bid system, each team started with a base, and then you could earn more through trades or certain performance levels. Teams could bid no more than they had, and were required to fill a 25 man roster. So if I needed 7 players, and have 100 points available, the most I could bid on 1 player would be 94. Every day, owners would send a sitemail to the commissioner with their bids, with players separated out by position (day 1 is Catchers, day 2 1st base, etc), so you need to plan accordingly. If you want Babe Ruth, you need to ensure you have the credits available when it gets to his position. Or maybe you count on everyone going for Ruth so you can stockpile 4-5 other positions with the same value. Only the team with the winning bid would lose the credits, all losing bids would be returned.

in that league, players were put on contracts depending on how many credits they cost. 1 credit = 1 year contract, 2-5 credits = 2 years, 6-10 credits =3 years, 11-15 credits =4 years, 16-20 credits = 5 years, 21-25 credits = 6 years, 26+ Credits = 7 years later.

This was an insane amount of fun, the bidding process was more exciting than any draft, and it allowed for a constant flood of talent as contracts ended, and babe Ruth goings back into the free agency draft after 1925.

I believe this was based off of the first league I ever ran. It was called the Kingfiz CDL(Contract Draft League). I was contemplating restarting it. I still have access to the original forum. The oldest post in there is from 2007. Toddleduc was one of the original owners in my league I believe. I wish WIS allowed access to the really old posts that they deleted.

If you decide to, count me in.