After this next season in Phelan, I will officially be boycotting all Full Court Press teams in non-conference. It’s a bullsh** defense as a base defense and it’s finally gotten to the point that I refuse to play against teams that run it if I have a choice.

In the 4 games I have played a FCP team this season, my spreads were: even, +1, +6, and -5. I lost them all by 35, 14, 27, and 10. That’s a total of 86 points when the spreads average was +1.

My team in Phelan has a 65.8 passing rating without walkons which would be top 10 in D1. I have 6 of my 10 players that have between a 93 and 73 passing rating.

This needs to be fixed. FCP is not a base defense. No one runs FCP all game every game. No one runs and jumps the entire game. And good passing teams should be able to compete. Right now, unless you are a perineal powerhouse with an average 720 team overall or you run this BS defense, you can’t consistently compete with FCP teams even if they are worse overall.

I have consistently played this game with no breaks for over 3 years now and I am considering putting it down unless something is done about this. Mods, please at least nerf the dam thing. It’s ridiculous and is ruining this sim. I beg someone to change something up. I’ve thrown out ideas and I know others have as well. It can be done and as an avid user, it is my one and only concern/request. I know I’m just one user and if you lose me it’s not a big deal. But by making a change you won’t lose me and I know others would appreciate the change. Please fix this!

I'm not sure why you're focusing on Passing over Ball-handling so much. To be better against press, I recommend recruiting more high BH and STA players to your team, especially BH. Your Oklahoma team has a team STA of 74 which is horrendous (you are pretty much forced to run slowdown given you only play 10 guys, but you run normal anyways for some reason... check your box score last night and look at how tired your guys are) and only 2 players with 60+ ball-handling which is shocking (86 and 67-- and they have 69 and 70 STA meaning they can barely make it to a stoppage before they need to be subbed out). You don't even play Dilorenzo at PG for some reason. I'm not sure why you're so surprised a 67 BH PG and a 53 BH SF combined for 13 turnovers yesterday when they are playing dead tired through the whole second half.

The other issue is the fact that you only have 2 big men on your team. Sharp, Edwards, Littlejohn, Hammons, Williams, and Turner all can't rebound and can't handle the ball. Generally, I like to cap myself at 1/2 players that can't do either.

If you're going to build your teams like this, I think it's a good idea not to play any more press teams than you have to, since they will destroy you. Scheduling more man/zone is a good idea for sure.

Press is actually my favorite defense to face D1, by far. I find it extremely ineffective, especially against my high STA teams (I like to run uptempo against press).

Cub cub,
I understand my teams limitations. I’m new to Oklahoma. But I’ve played slow down, normal, and uptempo against the FCP this year. None yielded different results. But I’ve been playing this game for a long time. This is not a new complaint. And it’s not just based on this season. I’ve been asking for a change for years. Not only is FCP an overpowered defense in this sim, but it’s not a true base defense, which makes the simulation not really a simulation. FCP is a secondary defense. It’s a a way to change things up and throw something different at the opposing team to try and force turnovers. You can’t press every play of every game. U have to be able to set up a press. And no team runs and jumps every play of every game. Teams would consistently get run out of the gym if they tried to press after misses. So I think FCP should be a secondary defense or nerfed. Teams with 9-10 players should be on a more level playing field. FCP needs to be a secondary defense or nerfed. I appreciate your input and recommendations, but they don’t change the fact the FCP needs some sort of adjustment.

Posted by Brokenee on 5/13/2021 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Cub cub,
I understand my teams limitations. I’m new to Oklahoma. But I’ve played slow down, normal, and uptempo against the FCP this year. None yielded different results. But I’ve been playing this game for a long time. This is not a new complaint. And it’s not just based on this season. I’ve been asking for a change for years. Not only is FCP an overpowered defense in this sim, but it’s not a true base defense, which makes the simulation not really a simulation. FCP is a secondary defense. It’s a a way to change things up and throw something different at the opposing team to try and force turnovers. You can’t press every play of every game. U have to be able to set up a press. And no team runs and jumps every play of every game. Teams would consistently get run out of the gym if they tried to press after misses. So I think FCP should be a secondary defense or nerfed. Teams with 9-10 players should be on a more level playing field. FCP needs to be a secondary defense or nerfed. I appreciate your input and recommendations, but they don’t change the fact the FCP needs some sort of adjustment.

I agree 100% with cub regarding the passing comments. That's not the attribute that will help you beat the press.

Also, teams with 9 or 10 players CAN dominate a press fairly easily. I know both sides of the street here. I am mainly a press coach in my career but I've also built my status and profile here, by winning titles with every set. That was a goal of mine when I got started so I knew how to deal with all sets offensively and defensively.

I've had press teams that run teams out of the gym. I've had 10 man M2M teams at D2 that have upset 1 seeded fb/press teams that have 81 ATH 85 DEF team averages (which is RIDICULOUSLY good for D2. Maybe the highest I've seen). It's all about learning how to team build, and how to game plan. I'm definitely not saying you're doing anything wrong in those categories because I have no clue. I haven't followed along. But building teams that can beat a press isn't impossible. And building teams to win with press isn't impossible. It's all about the players you have.

With you focusing on passing in this topic, it's "possible" that you may not understand what it takes to beat an elite press team. (Passing surely helps, but it isn't the decider). And of course maybe you do know what it takes to beat the press and didn't mention it. I'm willing to discuss some things with you if you like. You can sitemail me. Lots of others willing to help as well. Keep trying brother. You'll get it!

Also my theory on adjusting press...... if we did, then people would say M2M is too powerful. Or Zone is too powerful.

I really don't think it's more powerful than other sets. I just think it's easier to build a team, for the average coach. The properly built M2M team can be just as strong as the best press teams. (I would add Zone here, but zone is even harder to build, and I've never built a super elite untouchable zone team so I can't really compare)

I’d be in favor of a slider, like how often do you press off an inbounds from 20-100% of the time, that would be cool. As someone who has been a big proponent of the combo for many years, I think that’d be lovely, in fact. But not for balance reasons, just for the sake of making running multiple defenses more attractive, and giving folks another gameplay option.

The balance is pretty good right now, in fact. Zone is still playing a little weak for a lot of folks, but I think many of them still don’t understand how it’s supposed to work very well, and underestimate how important defense is in that scheme. If there are balance problems, I think they’re in tempo and doubleteam options, and both of those actually work to mitigate any perceived press strength advantage.

Just in general, I agree with cub and doggg that passing doesn’t have any special significance against press. Passing is important for offensive efficiency against any defense, but what really matters against press is speed, ballhandling, and stamina (and depth, if the opponent is not going to slowdown). You have to take care of the ball against the press, and in this game, turnovers are mostly a function of speed and ballhandling; passing is mostly for offensive efficiency. We can argue about whether that is good or bad, but it is what it is I think.

Press can have weaknesses in that it requires more stamina to run well, and your opponent can’t doubleteam or really target your best scorers. They can line up their best defenders against your top guys, but they’re still just crossing their fingers that the press works out against the guy on a given play. The doubleteam is a strong, targeted attack that the press abdicates. And if you have the stamina, and the speed/ballhandling, you can keep the tempo up against a press and really get them in foul trouble, too.

“Nerfing” the FCP would be a terrible balance move, because right now the viability of the press is one of the things that really keeps incentive for folks to recruit full rosters. That’s important for the recruiting economics of the game. If anything is playing overpowered right now, it’s the ridiculous slowdown/negative/double-the-shooters strategy. So many bullsh*t upsets with that approach, the thing I’d like to see fixed first and foremost is how tempo balance is handled.

I usually don't schedule non-conference press teams because I find it boring going slowdown ... which is almost essential against good press teams.

One comment - spreads are weak indicators. The results compared to the spreads are a good example of the spreads being bad. They are especially bad early in the season. Spreads mean little.

Press in considerably “underpowered” in D1 compared to D2/D3. Your team is simply poorly equipped to handle a good press team

Without getting into your roster and attributes like the other posts, you played the #15, #17, and #2 teams in the country, ALL ON THE ROAD. Not that shocking you got smoked.

i agree with the folks saying press is not overpowered in d1. i was always on the press is overpowered bandwagon, and i became a very press-heavy coach for that reason. all 4 times i won at least 5 titles in 10 seasons or less were with press, and i never doubted for a second that i was playing the best defense for the type of achievements i was going for.

that's just not the case anymore. with the difficulty in replacing EEs and the dice rolls in d1, man is the defense to play to build an elite dynasty in 3.0 in d1. d2/d3 are all out of whack and somewhat nonsensical, and press may be OP down there - but given that d1 is the biggest stage and has much higher population, it seems more important to keep d1 in balance - and the d1 balance is the best its ever been, also without press at the top of the list, for probably the first time ever.

also people just in general fail to recognize the danger a deep m2m or zone team is to a press, while running uptempo. plenty of teams should run slowdown against the press, but a lot of folks think running slowdown against the press is ideal. its actually the opposite of that, a crutch for those who can't run with the press teams. when you have m2m and zone teams of similar depth, you have way more ability to run than your press opponent, and normal tempo or uptempo will usually work much better.

I don't mind going against the press or zone. You can set your offense once all season and forget about. M2M is the one that is a pain. If you want to be ready, you have to adjust your setting every game against M2M. And unless it is the playoffs, I'm usually too lazy to do that.

Posted by gillispie on 5/13/2021 11:51:00 PM (view original):
i agree with the folks saying press is not overpowered in d1. i was always on the press is overpowered bandwagon, and i became a very press-heavy coach for that reason. all 4 times i won at least 5 titles in 10 seasons or less were with press, and i never doubted for a second that i was playing the best defense for the type of achievements i was going for.

that's just not the case anymore. with the difficulty in replacing EEs and the dice rolls in d1, man is the defense to play to build an elite dynasty in 3.0 in d1. d2/d3 are all out of whack and somewhat nonsensical, and press may be OP down there - but given that d1 is the biggest stage and has much higher population, it seems more important to keep d1 in balance - and the d1 balance is the best its ever been, also without press at the top of the list, for probably the first time ever.

also people just in general fail to recognize the danger a deep m2m or zone team is to a press, while running uptempo. plenty of teams should run slowdown against the press, but a lot of folks think running slowdown against the press is ideal. its actually the opposite of that, a crutch for those who can't run with the press teams. when you have m2m and zone teams of similar depth, you have way more ability to run than your press opponent, and normal tempo or uptempo will usually work much better.

^^

The way to beat the press consistently is uptempo, not slowdown. But you have to build your team correctly to be able to hang with them.

Posted by shoe3 on 5/13/2021 5:51:00 PM (view original):
I’d be in favor of a slider, like how often do you press off an inbounds from 20-100% of the time, that would be cool. As someone who has been a big proponent of the combo for many years, I think that’d be lovely, in fact. But not for balance reasons, just for the sake of making running multiple defenses more attractive, and giving folks another gameplay option.

The balance is pretty good right now, in fact. Zone is still playing a little weak for a lot of folks, but I think many of them still don’t understand how it’s supposed to work very well, and underestimate how important defense is in that scheme. If there are balance problems, I think they’re in tempo and doubleteam options, and both of those actually work to mitigate any perceived press strength advantage.

Just in general, I agree with cub and doggg that passing doesn’t have any special significance against press. Passing is important for offensive efficiency against any defense, but what really matters against press is speed, ballhandling, and stamina (and depth, if the opponent is not going to slowdown). You have to take care of the ball against the press, and in this game, turnovers are mostly a function of speed and ballhandling; passing is mostly for offensive efficiency. We can argue about whether that is good or bad, but it is what it is I think.

Press can have weaknesses in that it requires more stamina to run well, and your opponent can’t doubleteam or really target your best scorers. They can line up their best defenders against your top guys, but they’re still just crossing their fingers that the press works out against the guy on a given play. The doubleteam is a strong, targeted attack that the press abdicates. And if you have the stamina, and the speed/ballhandling, you can keep the tempo up against a press and really get them in foul trouble, too.

“Nerfing” the FCP would be a terrible balance move, because right now the viability of the press is one of the things that really keeps incentive for folks to recruit full rosters. That’s important for the recruiting economics of the game. If anything is playing overpowered right now, it’s the ridiculous slowdown/negative/double-the-shooters strategy. So many bullsh*t upsets with that approach, the thing I’d like to see fixed first and foremost is how tempo balance is handled.

this is a great post. it's so much harder to recruit in a fb/press than a mo/man since you have to take fewer walkons, which means you have less cash to spend over a 4 year period.

Posted by cubcub113 on 5/14/2021 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 5/13/2021 11:51:00 PM (view original):
i agree with the folks saying press is not overpowered in d1. i was always on the press is overpowered bandwagon, and i became a very press-heavy coach for that reason. all 4 times i won at least 5 titles in 10 seasons or less were with press, and i never doubted for a second that i was playing the best defense for the type of achievements i was going for.

that's just not the case anymore. with the difficulty in replacing EEs and the dice rolls in d1, man is the defense to play to build an elite dynasty in 3.0 in d1. d2/d3 are all out of whack and somewhat nonsensical, and press may be OP down there - but given that d1 is the biggest stage and has much higher population, it seems more important to keep d1 in balance - and the d1 balance is the best its ever been, also without press at the top of the list, for probably the first time ever.

also people just in general fail to recognize the danger a deep m2m or zone team is to a press, while running uptempo. plenty of teams should run slowdown against the press, but a lot of folks think running slowdown against the press is ideal. its actually the opposite of that, a crutch for those who can't run with the press teams. when you have m2m and zone teams of similar depth, you have way more ability to run than your press opponent, and normal tempo or uptempo will usually work much better.

^^

The way to beat the press consistently is uptempo, not slowdown. But you have to build your team correctly to be able to hang with them.

That last part is so key. For most teams, I think, slowdown is a better bet against good press teams (especially those with good stamina) because turnovers is the way a press team is trying to beat you. Going uptempo against a press is a gamble that you’re going to get them in foul trouble and trigger a fatigue cascade somewhere. Just getting more team fouls isn’t really a win *unless* you get that cascade at a position. And good press teams with stamina and proper balance are usually going to withstand uptempo just fine, even with 25+ fouls. I think that’s why so many folks find slowdown the better option.

But if you have the right team, if you can outrun them with better speed and ballhandling than their press speed and defense can contain, with plenty of depth/stamina to outlast them, then you can take that gamble without taking the possessions hit the extra turnovers give most teams when they try to do it. So yeah, with the CORRECT team, uptempo against a press can be a good play.