Or for for some early and peak and end of career composites.

They should add playoff stats to seasons when they can.

Also I looked up Cool Papa Bell and in the 20s there were more game stats. He had seasons approaching 100 games which would be much more fair for prorating.

Posted by dino27 on 6/17/2021 1:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by contrarian23 on 6/17/2021 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Prorating is a precedent, yes, but 2020 is a dramatic outlier (60 games prorated to 162 games AND for the first time WIS prorated the min AB/IP requirement). The combination led to some absurd results.

Doing these things for the negro leagues is going to become a joke, I have to say. Take the 1939 NNL as one example:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NN2/1939.shtml

The AVERAGE team in that league played 40 games - far fewer than any league in the current SLB database. No team played as many as 60 games. The Toledo Crawfords played 11 games. ELEVEN.

I love these leagues, I fully agree that talent and the competition absolutely deserves to be called Major League, and I applaud the decision by MLB and baseball-reference to recognize that. But I think it's frankly absurd to argue that these teams and players should be included in SLB. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you about the prorating.
maybe they can create a career composite for some players adding together the prime seasons of a player and then prorating.

Yet how many games did Bob Milacki pitch in that season everyone has used him ?

Let's also remember the REASON that these players played so few games in these leagues that played at a major league level:

They were prevented by racism from playing in 154 games a season in St. Louis or New York, Boston or Philadelphia, Pittsburgh (where the owner of the Pittsburgh Crawfords once pleaded in the press to the owner of the Pirates to buy at reasonable prices the contracts of Paige, Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Buck O'Neill so the Bucs would not have to sit near the bottom of the National League, and never got an answer).

Yes, let's compound the injustice by punishing these players and their seasons, doubling down on the fact that they did not play full Major League seasons in terms of number of games played, by all means. That is what is absurd, and cruel and unjust.

If OOTP can, as it has, included the Negro Leagues into its game, being the other most sophisticated algorithm-based baseball simulation, then WIS can too.

Will there need to be a normalization factor though? Obviously there were some incredible Negro Leagues players, but I feel like the overall pitching Gibson would’ve faced in MLB was likely superior to what he faced in the Negro Leagues at the time. So do you factor that in and normalize his stats at all?

his numbers will be normalized based on the league averages for the league he played in, there won't be a league-wide penalty for everyone in the league. the Federal League guys don't get a penalty and that league was almost certainly farther below MLB in quality than leagues with all the best black players.

Posted by italyprof on 6/18/2021 5:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dino27 on 6/17/2021 1:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by contrarian23 on 6/17/2021 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Prorating is a precedent, yes, but 2020 is a dramatic outlier (60 games prorated to 162 games AND for the first time WIS prorated the min AB/IP requirement). The combination led to some absurd results.

Doing these things for the negro leagues is going to become a joke, I have to say. Take the 1939 NNL as one example:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NN2/1939.shtml

The AVERAGE team in that league played 40 games - far fewer than any league in the current SLB database. No team played as many as 60 games. The Toledo Crawfords played 11 games. ELEVEN.

I love these leagues, I fully agree that talent and the competition absolutely deserves to be called Major League, and I applaud the decision by MLB and baseball-reference to recognize that. But I think it's frankly absurd to argue that these teams and players should be included in SLB. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you about the prorating.
maybe they can create a career composite for some players adding together the prime seasons of a player and then prorating.

Yet how many games did Bob Milacki pitch in that season everyone has used him ?

I don’t understand your comment.
Bob Milaki isn’t prorated.
He is 29 innings.
he is saved for 2-3 games in playoffs.

Per baseballreference.com

Gibsons average per 162 games=. 680PA.; 218 Hits; 36 Doubles; 16 Triples; 45/196/374. OPS 1.177.

Ill still take him!

Posted by italyprof on 6/18/2021 5:40:00 AM (view original):
If OOTP can, as it has, included the Negro Leagues into its game, being the other most sophisticated algorithm-based baseball simulation, then WIS can too.

Does OOTP prorate to 162 games, or take at face value ? Not everyone was J.Gibson, and wouldn't it be a better use of all the new players if they were potentially rostered more often as possible ? Even with normalization, would too many be priced out of range except for the most ultra cap leagues, compared perhaps to landing on more rosters as a to be sure high $/PA but less prohibitive total team salary hit based on lower playing time ?

Posted by italyprof on 6/18/2021 5:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dino27 on 6/17/2021 1:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by contrarian23 on 6/17/2021 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Prorating is a precedent, yes, but 2020 is a dramatic outlier (60 games prorated to 162 games AND for the first time WIS prorated the min AB/IP requirement). The combination led to some absurd results.

Doing these things for the negro leagues is going to become a joke, I have to say. Take the 1939 NNL as one example:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NN2/1939.shtml

The AVERAGE team in that league played 40 games - far fewer than any league in the current SLB database. No team played as many as 60 games. The Toledo Crawfords played 11 games. ELEVEN.

I love these leagues, I fully agree that talent and the competition absolutely deserves to be called Major League, and I applaud the decision by MLB and baseball-reference to recognize that. But I think it's frankly absurd to argue that these teams and players should be included in SLB. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you about the prorating.
maybe they can create a career composite for some players adding together the prime seasons of a player and then prorating.

Yet how many games did Bob Milacki pitch in that season everyone has used him ?

But we’re not pro-rating Milacki’s 3 games to 162. He played 3 games and has 3 games worth of stats. The issue becomes guys who played 11 games giving 162 games worth of stats. This is why the 2020 prorating the minimums has given some crazy outliers because they only played 5-7 games and have stats as
though they played in significantly more.

Using Milacki again, he threw 3 CG in his popular season. He gets credit for 3 CG worth of stats here in WIS. Had he had that season in 2020 he’d be good for 70 IP. In an 11 game season, if he’d thrown those same three starts he’d be good for 383 IP. Now I know you don’t think we should be crediting Milacki with 383 IP for those 3 starts.

But this is currently how WIS handles short seasons. The argument above isn’t that these players shouldn’t be recognized, nor that we shouldn’t recognize the context in which they achieved these stats and played these games, but that there isn’t a way to reconcile them statistically given the sample sizes.

WIS position under previous owners has been “we’d love to include them, but they’re akin to the 1871-1884 MLB leagues. Lots of missing data and incomplete seasons with teams playing schedules of varying and short lengths that make equitable pro-rating difficult, if not impossible to do.”

2020 is already a mess, and I agree it opened doors for NLB seasons even before the recognition from MLB and B-R. But 11-40 game seasons aren’t really useable currently. Hopefully more box scores are found and those seasons will have more recognized games. Until the. We’re realistically limited to the seasons that have at least 60 games. Wouldn’t be much different than seasons with UA or PL or FL teams for a season or two. Having NLB teams for a season here and there would still be exciting without totally distorting their accomplishments and this game.

Sometimes solid logic is SO damned irritating. Are you intimating that this is a case of "institutional (racism) discrimination" in front of our OWN noses??

I know many around here who claim such a thing (institutional racism) no longer exists in our society/times.
Are they wrong?