First of all grats to Noonway winning the Smith PIT. I got to coach with him a bit when he started at UC and he knows what he is doing.

Second, and more important :), he accomplished this by playing a C/PF at the SG position the entire season.
Hoops Dynasty – College Basketball Sim Games - Jacob Wray - Ratings - Smith - Hoops Dynasty Basketball | WhatIfSports

(Being anal) I've worked up the opponent SG stats for the season. What would you expect opponent SG %s to be for the season?

2pt% =
3pt% =
Total% =

Given he played #86 SOS is the guy is a decent enough defender (87 ath 86 de 32 spd is probably slightly below average at the 2 for that SOS). Then the Backup waters is slightly worse (75 ath/de 45 spd). If I was playing this team I would attack the 2 but I'm still guessing teams didn't score that well since 86 SOS is 86 SOS.

Not out of position, that’s a 2/3, just a really slow one. :)

Probably around 40% 2pt, 30% 3pt. What cub said about SOS is important. The speed hurts the turnover ability the most on defense, the ath/def/IQ is the primary combo to consider for FG%. Offensively, that guy is strictly catch and shoot. He’s basically unusable offensively at D1 in motion, and it looks like noonway is using him properly (if he has to start him).

As soon as Gillispi joins in I can share. I figured Show, Gil, and benis would be crunching numbers :).

But shoe, you are heading in the right direction.

i agree with these guys his defense by fg% is probably not too bad. perhaps 42%, 34% (fg, 3), figuring he is about average for the team when it comes to fg% defense and they are 42%, and he's probably a little worse on 3s so thats like 2% worse than team average

I view that guy as a PF/C also. Random thought.

	FGA	FGM
Total 2 pters	44	93	47%
Total 3 pters	45	131	34%

"Probably around 40% 2pt, 30% 3pt. What cub said about SOS is important. "

So if you think a guard with 31 speed gives up only 40% shooting, what would a guard with 80-90 speed give up? 30% shooting????????
So basically you guys are reiterating that speed is not important for guards.

By comparison here is Providence's starting SG (I picked Prov since they are same conference with similar RPI
Hoops Dynasty – College Basketball Sim Games - Steven Hammonds - Ratings - Smith - Hoops Dynasty Basketball | WhatIfSports

__________Ath____Spd___Def
J Wray.......... 87........ 31...... 86
S Hammonds 81....... 81.......72

Opponent SGs vs Hammonds

	FGA	FGM
Total 2 pters	34	72	47%
Total 3 pters	33	88	38%

So if everything was in a vacuum HD is telling us we'd rather have a 31 speed guard on defense.

Ath/def advantages offset the speed deficiency, on defense regarding OFG% anyway. 47% was a little higher than I figured, but I neglected to consider that as a soph, he likely only recently moved up to B+, and spent mostly of the season at B- and B.

If a coach is trying to win by causing turnovers, this is not the way to do it. But if a coach is trying to win by suppressing the other team’s shooting, they want to throw high ath/def/IQ guys out there, and rebound well.

seble pretty severely neutered spd's impact on defense back when the ath/def/spd rebalance happened. its definitely a lot easier to get by without it now, defensively. still pretty important for per offense and TO generation.

Does speed only help in turnover generation in a press? If you run M2M, is speed even worth considering (as long as it’s at some very minimal standard)?

I’ve felt like speed doesn’t matter that much for a while now, this is a great deep dive.

I feel like SPD is the most difficult attribute to evaluate in HD. It somewhat applies to everything, but at the same time, you can't really see it in a box score like you can REB or PAS or other ratings.

I've always wanted to do an all-turtle team experiment. Running guards that are 80/50 consistently (instead of 50/80 as the norm). Maybe an 80/35 SF, and bigs that are both like 80/2. And see what notable differences can be seen

Posted by getbedarded on 9/12/2021 10:21:00 PM (view original):
Does speed only help in turnover generation in a press? If you run M2M, is speed even worth considering (as long as it’s at some very minimal standard)?

I’ve felt like speed doesn’t matter that much for a while now, this is a great deep dive.

The set combination where I would not think about speed as much is triangle and straight zone. And even then, it’s not like speed doesn’t matter, it’s only really just a lower priority, other things have more emphasis in the goodness formula of whether a shot goes in. Subject of the OP is still giving up quite a bit - offensively - in playing a guard with speed that low.

It’s simplistic, but if someone’s brain works this way, they can also think about it like this: FB and press both use speed a lot. So if you’re using those sets, or playing against them, you should think about speed. Motion, flex, and man use it a medium amount. Triangle and zone use it a marginal amount. Think about how using the player roles for Overall Rating from the user settings gives you a tool to weigh each position, to customize your evaluation. This helps me think about how the system evaluates players in context of each set; some attributes, like athleticism and defense, are very important in all of the sets for every position, while some, like block, are only really important to a couple positions in certain sets.

i partially agree with shoe's post there. press and fb definitely rely on speed more heavily than anything else. for the remaining schemes, the main impact is spd in 3pt scoring, which is an important factor in every offense. i still regard it pretty highly in triangle. i don't really see zone as needing less than man either.

you can definitely get away with things like a 95 ath/def 60 spd d1 pg on championship caliber teams - if its a non or 2pt scoring pg. and lower speed is definitely tolerable for scorers in the face of exceptional per/bh. i still find speed impacts 3pt meaningfully in all schemes, so i'd never get to like, ignoring it for non 3pt scorers. but its probably fair to call spd a main core for 3pt scorers and press players from the 1-3.

i do think spd helps in 2pt scoring too - for all players. i basically consider speed to be negligible in non-scoring bigs, safe to ignore it completely. its not a core for any big but i value it as a low end rating in scoring bigs, especially in d1 (where you'll face strong defensive skills, commensurate with strong offensive ratings). and i definitely value it pretty highly in 2pt scoring guards... especially in fb, but really everywhere (and probably by a small margin, the least in triangle, to shoe's point).