Posted by Got_Worms on 9/28/2021 12:23:00 PM (view original):
Brock plays terrible defense, which is surprising given his stature in MLB history.

he's definitely among the weaker HOFers looking only at his stats, a 109 OPS+ while playing poor defense at a corner outfield position wouldn't get you into the Hall these days, but his combination of durability and low BB meant he racked up a huge number of hits, and then add in the stolen base record and some great playoff performances and he was never gonna be left out.

Posted by 06gsp on 9/28/2021 12:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Got_Worms on 9/28/2021 12:23:00 PM (view original):
Brock plays terrible defense, which is surprising given his stature in MLB history.

he's definitely among the weaker HOFers looking only at his stats, a 109 OPS+ while playing poor defense at a corner outfield position wouldn't get you into the Hall these days, but his combination of durability and low BB meant he racked up a huge number of hits, and then add in the stolen base record and some great playoff performances and he was never gonna be left out.

Wow, you weren't kidding about Brock's durability. Just had a look at his b-r.com page. From 1964-74 he never played fewer than 153 games, and he averaged 706 PA per season. And within those 11 seasons were 3 WS appearances, where he slashed .391/.424/.655 in 21 games.

Defense? Really?

I'm not an analytics kind of guy, but I tend to draft pitcher-friendly parks in my progressives. My current Brock is going into 1970 in Dodgers Stadium. Since 1963, he's made 127 errors in 1108 games. He's also stolen 489 bases in that time.

Surely, that's good enough for an open league.

Brock's fine as a LF, I've used worse out there. In a hitters park he can rake. Has some power too. Most of his seasons are under $5M. Marquis Grissom and Otis Nixon need to be used more, as does Jerry Mumphrey. All can fly. Vince Coleman isn't more productive than those guys other than the number of steals.

Posted by DoctorKz on 9/28/2021 2:34:00 PM (view original):
Brock's fine as a LF, I've used worse out there. In a hitters park he can rake. Has some power too. Most of his seasons are under $5M. Marquis Grissom and Otis Nixon need to be used more, as does Jerry Mumphrey. All can fly. Vince Coleman isn't more productive than those guys other than the number of steals.

I had Grissom in a league where I played at Tiger Stadium (it was a franchise progressive, and I got in too late). Very good numbers, played all 162 most of the time, drove in 120 runs one season, and stole 418 bases. I traded franchises, now I have Rickey and Johnny Damon in Yankee Stadium.

Rickey real life and Rickey sim player are very different. The sim is rarely kind to him. An A+ catcher and deadball pitching really shut him down. He isn't a great value here. He can put up good numbers but tends to disappoint a lot. His lack of XBH doesn't help either. He fits in much better in progressive league play. I would only use him in a park like Dodger or PacBell, if at all.

Posted by DoctorKz on 9/28/2021 11:53:00 AM (view original):
Reyes at $7M+, under 600PA, and only B-/B- defense isn't ideal when you don't have AAA...That's a lot to spend on a guy that can't play 162 games. At best that leaves you $35M for 7 other bats. My 2 cents

If you want a solid Reyes, go with 2006. 700+PA and he rakes.

Posted by dannino on 9/28/2021 12:09:00 PM (view original):
Why doesn't Lou Brock get any love?

I first picked him up off waivers in my first OL team when I first joined the site, and now that I only play progressives, I will try to draft him whenever I can. And he's reasonably priced (for those who play OLs), with his most expensive season being 1971 (5.14M). Even his 1974 season, where he stole 118 bases, is only 4.78M.

Another guy I've had a lot of luck with is Gene Richards. His most expensive season is 1980, where he stole 61 bases, and is only 4.81M. Nowhere near as many seasons as Brock, but a good value.

I love Brock too- and don't listen to people saying "and A+ arm will shut down the running game". I am in a league with A+ arms up the butt and my speed is still finding great success

Team	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SO	HBP	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
Whos on 2nd v.5	130	4576	746	1320	180	80	21	698	381	537	41	793	145	.288	.346	.377	.723

Name (Bats)	Pos	Order	%	PA	AB	HR	RBI	SB	AVG	OBP	SLG	Salary
Maury Wills '62 (S)	SS*	1	100	624	598	2	47	132	.334	.361	.406	5.93M
Lou Brock '74 (L)	LF*	2	100	598	534	1	103	132	.313	.373	.418	4.78M
Juan Samuel '84 (R)	2B*	3	100	610	573	9	88	118	.295	.330	.461	4.90M
Vince Coleman '85 (S)	CF*	4	100	580	536	0	108	120	.306	.350	.394	4.40M
Rickey Henderson '88 (R)	RF*	5	100	563	486	2	82	98	.335	.419	.401	5.37M
Fritz Maisel '14 (R)	3B*	6	100	554	445	2	85	57	.272	.352	.364	3.83M
Tim Raines '81 (S)	1B	7	86	548	476	3	85	102	.307	.391	.420	5.66M
John Wathan '82 (R)	C *	9	90	489	442	1	49	34	.269	.337	.310	3.91M

Team is in a division with some great owners (redsox and besterteam) and we're currently leading the division at 77-53

Posted by chargingryno on 9/29/2021 12:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dannino on 9/28/2021 12:09:00 PM (view original):
Why doesn't Lou Brock get any love?

I first picked him up off waivers in my first OL team when I first joined the site, and now that I only play progressives, I will try to draft him whenever I can. And he's reasonably priced (for those who play OLs), with his most expensive season being 1971 (5.14M). Even his 1974 season, where he stole 118 bases, is only 4.78M.

Another guy I've had a lot of luck with is Gene Richards. His most expensive season is 1980, where he stole 61 bases, and is only 4.81M. Nowhere near as many seasons as Brock, but a good value.

I love Brock too- and don't listen to people saying "and A+ arm will shut down the running game". I am in a league with A+ arms up the butt and my speed is still finding great success

Team	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SO	HBP	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
Whos on 2nd v.5	130	4576	746	1320	180	80	21	698	381	537	41	793	145	.288	.346	.377	.723

Name (Bats)	Pos	Order	%	PA	AB	HR	RBI	SB	AVG	OBP	SLG	Salary
Maury Wills '62 (S)	SS*	1	100	624	598	2	47	132	.334	.361	.406	5.93M
Lou Brock '74 (L)	LF*	2	100	598	534	1	103	132	.313	.373	.418	4.78M
Juan Samuel '84 (R)	2B*	3	100	610	573	9	88	118	.295	.330	.461	4.90M
Vince Coleman '85 (S)	CF*	4	100	580	536	0	108	120	.306	.350	.394	4.40M
Rickey Henderson '88 (R)	RF*	5	100	563	486	2	82	98	.335	.419	.401	5.37M
Fritz Maisel '14 (R)	3B*	6	100	554	445	2	85	57	.272	.352	.364	3.83M
Tim Raines '81 (S)	1B	7	86	548	476	3	85	102	.307	.391	.420	5.66M
John Wathan '82 (R)	C *	9	90	489	442	1	49	34	.269	.337	.310	3.91M

Team is in a division with some great owners (redsox and besterteam) and we're currently leading the division at 77-53

Ryno, if you remember, someone brought up in the J4MF league that Brock was one of the few successful base stealers in the 60s. Which is why I drafted him. Probably should have drafted a big bat with my number one instead of Drysdale, but them's the breaks.

I was in kallison1's True Rookie progressive before it shut down (he left the site), and I won my first WS with a team that had 83 Rickey leading off ahead of 71 Brock (that's 172 RL SBs alone!), and 73 Bert Campaneris batting 9th (DH league). It also helped that I had 83 Wade Boggs, 66 Brooksie, 70 Yaz and 75 Boomer Scott to move them along and drive them home.

Yes, I think using stolen bases is underutilized in the sim, and yes, I think it works well in progressives. I try it in every league I'm in.

Currently resting 5 Starters waiting for playoffs to start.
Normal lineup is Garr-Clemente-Stargell-Hebner-Oliver-Sanguillen-Maz-Patek
Great Hitting team. Garr leading league in hits,average, He hit In 39 straight.

Starters
Name (Bats)	Pos	Order	%	PA	AB	HR	RBI	SB	AVG	OBP	SLG	Salary
Ralph Garr '71 (L)	CF*	1	100	690	654	4	92	17	.381	.413	.453	5.69M
Johnny Jeter '71 (R)	RF*	2	88	94	93	0	15	1	.398	.404	.495	699K
Pat Kelly '71 (L)	LF*	3	100	33	29	1	10	1	.448	.469	.621	1.80M
Jose Pagan '71 (R)	3B*	4	100	178	158	5	28	0	.241	.309	.348	694K
Al Oliver '71 (L)	1B^	5	100	522	488	12	78	0	.314	.356	.459	4.76M
Milt May '71 (L)	C *	6	100	129	123	8	26	0	.268	.302	.463	1.61M
Dave Cash '71 (R)	2B*	7	100	420	387	3	47	0	.300	.350	.372	3.40M
Freddie Patek '71 (R)	SS*	8	100	644	593	5	76	34	.302	.352	.386	5.18M
Bench
Name (Bats)	Pos	Order	%	PA	AB	HR	RBI	SB	AVG	OBP	SLG	Salary
Roberto Clemente '71 (R)	RF*	Rest	91	633	594	11	91	0	.372	.409	.505	5.71M
Richie Hebner '71 (L)	3B*	Rest	90	502	462	24	104	1	.286	.339	.515	2.69M
Bill Mazeroski '71 (R)	2B*	Rest	81	265	243	1	29	0	.325	.349	.354	848K
Manny Sanguillen '71 (R)	C *	Rest	93	626	593	7	77	0	.322	.350	.417	5.43M
Willie Stargell '71 (L)	LF*	Rest	99	645	542	55	153	0	.327	.426	.690	6.46M

Speaking of Brock, I have used him a few times over the years with mostly good results. I am going to try him in round 2 of the WISC, the 80M "He's really a HOFer" theme. I looked at several seasons, but knew I didn't want any of the D- range versions. The seasons I liked best were 64, 67, and 72-74. Decided on 1964 as it wasn't one of his worst defensive seasons, plus his best full season AVG (.315). It also has pretty decent numbers for extra bases and of course the great speed at 92. Downside is the below average defense and one of his worst SB seasons.

I won't bat him leadoff though, probably in the 2 slot vs lhp and 3 slot vs rhp.

A strange thing about the 64 full time version(s)...both in the NL, both with the same normalized numbers, yet an approximately $30,000 difference in salary. Salary adjustment back when it was used? That's the only thing I could think of.

Yeah, dynamic pricing likely affected one more than the other.
The '64 partial .348 avg is a good one for platoon...

His '75 season isn't awful either...

Even with his defense, he's not bad in really any season. Because he has poor defense ratings, he wasn't effect much by dynamic pricing so he's still a great bargain for what he does offensively. 65-75, I don't think there's a bad on in the bunch

Staying on the Brock theme, I've always liked using the '66 at a triples friendly park. For $4.13M, he gives you 678 PAs, 15 homers, a .288 AVG# and a 3b/100AB# I've suspected plays out better than the assigned 2 (probably rounded down from 2.4 or something). His C range is better than most of his seasons and, best of all from my perspective, the 66 season is his second best SBA/100 opportunities (56.44). Couple his go-go attitude with his .804 SB/SBA, and he always greatly exceeds his RL 74 SB number for me.

The '75 season works great in the 9 spot. Bat the pitcher 8th...or bat him leadoff, get a cheap RH bat to use vs lefties...he's only $3.76M. (570 PA)