People who feel the compulsion to cheat don't typically have a change of heart. They just get better at hiding the cheating. So another slap on the wrist for someone who has multiple offenses doesn't seem like the right move.

Posted by Basketts on 11/16/2021 11:50:00 AM (view original):
People who feel the compulsion to cheat don't typically have a change of heart. They just get better at hiding the cheating. So another slap on the wrist for someone who has multiple offenses doesn't seem like the right move.

for what its worth, he was warned once prior to the current incident, as best as i can tell. so i think this is really the one that makes it multiple offenses, and it sounds like support told him this is his final warning (and it wasn't really a warning - or a slap on the wrist - he lost a whole slew of teams).

not defending ab here only trying to keep the context around the CS support actions... in context, i suppose?

I like it how CS closed a thread about this so Benis just made another one so the craziness can continue. Well played.

I mean, we're allowed to speak on the game! As long as we don't belittle "person".

And gil, I don't know how to go back in my tickets, but it's SURELY been more than once! I've had weeks long conversations with seble about "person"! I don't have the info to display and such, but it's been more than once. Hell I've been warned more than once! I was once warned by someone (and I flipped out because of it!) because I cut a player at 10:58pm on the last day of recruiting. But he wasn't removed. It just kept reloading with him still on my roster. And I told CS about it and asked them to remove the player for me (sent the ticket immediately). During conversation, I told them I cut him that late because I didn't want others to have a shot at signing him. Jerk move? Sure. But they gave me a warning for keeping coaches from signing a potential player!!!!! Swear! That one blew me away.

As basketts hinted at, it's a character trait. Not an isolated incident. When you see cars pull up to the same run down house for years, and people go in and out 50 times a day, they aren't labeled drug dealers because the got caught once or twice. They've been doing it all along!

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/15/2021 4:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by digitalv on 11/15/2021 1:59:00 PM (view original):
I alerted them to a user that has 3 teams in one world the other day (2 D1 and a D3). They even went on to say they thought it was overkill to have that many teams in the same world. Now I want to see what they end up doing with all those IDs

The bad thing about this, is there's likely a way that this is legal, regarding fairplay guidelines (I don't know because I don't measure miles between schools because I don't take part in trying to squeak by the rules. I just play NORMAL). And with that in mind, it's possible that NOTHING gets done. If he's in like D3 Hawaii and like D1 New Mexico and Maine (random locations), he's in compliance.

Goofy? Absolutely!
Breaking fairplay guidelines as they are? Maybe not.

Top-the crazy thing is you could have either 7 or 8 teams in a world and STILL be within the FPGs. Awhile back someone figured it out but to get that many you'd need a team in HI, AK and PR.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 11/16/2021 9:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/15/2021 4:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by digitalv on 11/15/2021 1:59:00 PM (view original):
I alerted them to a user that has 3 teams in one world the other day (2 D1 and a D3). They even went on to say they thought it was overkill to have that many teams in the same world. Now I want to see what they end up doing with all those IDs

The bad thing about this, is there's likely a way that this is legal, regarding fairplay guidelines (I don't know because I don't measure miles between schools because I don't take part in trying to squeak by the rules. I just play NORMAL). And with that in mind, it's possible that NOTHING gets done. If he's in like D3 Hawaii and like D1 New Mexico and Maine (random locations), he's in compliance.

Goofy? Absolutely!
Breaking fairplay guidelines as they are? Maybe not.

Top-the crazy thing is you could have either 7 or 8 teams in a world and STILL be within the FPGs. Awhile back someone figured it out but to get that many you'd need a team in HI, AK and PR.

Because level of competition doesn't matter, which is dumb. CS doesn't think if a coach has a D1 and a D3, even within the 1,000 mile radius, that it's an issue because obviously they would NEVER use their D1 scouting budget to help out their D3 team too.

Posted by digitalv on 11/17/2021 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 11/16/2021 9:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/15/2021 4:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by digitalv on 11/15/2021 1:59:00 PM (view original):
I alerted them to a user that has 3 teams in one world the other day (2 D1 and a D3). They even went on to say they thought it was overkill to have that many teams in the same world. Now I want to see what they end up doing with all those IDs

The bad thing about this, is there's likely a way that this is legal, regarding fairplay guidelines (I don't know because I don't measure miles between schools because I don't take part in trying to squeak by the rules. I just play NORMAL). And with that in mind, it's possible that NOTHING gets done. If he's in like D3 Hawaii and like D1 New Mexico and Maine (random locations), he's in compliance.

Goofy? Absolutely!
Breaking fairplay guidelines as they are? Maybe not.

Top-the crazy thing is you could have either 7 or 8 teams in a world and STILL be within the FPGs. Awhile back someone figured it out but to get that many you'd need a team in HI, AK and PR.

Because level of competition doesn't matter, which is dumb. CS doesn't think if a coach has a D1 and a D3, even within the 1,000 mile radius, that it's an issue because obviously they would NEVER use their D1 scouting budget to help out their D3 team too.

Obviously!

But I do know the real mindset, after discussing with Adam. We as a group, complain about lack of population. Them as a business, complain (not really complain, but would prefer) about lack of population as well. So for the coaches that are already paying for 3 accounts, the argument is that forcing them to stop would create money loss. So it's a double edge sword

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/17/2021 10:55:00 AM (view original):
But I do know the real mindset, after discussing with Adam. We as a group, complain about lack of population. Them as a business, complain (not really complain, but would prefer) about lack of population as well. So for the coaches that are already paying for 3 accounts, the argument is that forcing them to stop would create money loss. So it's a double edge sword

I totally get the population thing. It's a fair point.

But at some point, you gotta pick which is more important. You will lose paying customers who feel like they're wasting money while you hang on to users who are abusing the rules.

And the other thing, you will actually prevent cheating in the future if you clamp down on it (gasp!). Its no different than kids, they will try to get away with as much as you let them.

Posted by digitalv on 11/15/2021 1:59:00 PM (view original):
I alerted them to a user that has 3 teams in one world the other day (2 D1 and a D3). They even went on to say they thought it was overkill to have that many teams in the same world. Now I want to see what they end up doing with all those IDs

If that person is violating the 1000 mile rule and frequents the message boards then they should be banned absolutely. There is no way someone who comes on here doesn't know about the rules, it's talked about frequently.

And that's my issue with the whole AB thing. He knows the rules. He's even broken them in the past and was warned. So let's suspend reality for a second and this alt account was actually his wife's - wouldn't a reasonable person who is on thin ice say "hey honey don't pick a team close to mine, I don't want to be seen as breaking the rules again". Give me a break.

Posted by Benis on 11/17/2021 11:20:00 AM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/17/2021 10:55:00 AM (view original):
But I do know the real mindset, after discussing with Adam. We as a group, complain about lack of population. Them as a business, complain (not really complain, but would prefer) about lack of population as well. So for the coaches that are already paying for 3 accounts, the argument is that forcing them to stop would create money loss. So it's a double edge sword

I totally get the population thing. It's a fair point.

But at some point, you gotta pick which is more important. You will lose paying customers who feel like they're wasting money while you hang on to users who are abusing the rules.

And the other thing, you will actually prevent cheating in the future if you clamp down on it (gasp!). Its no different than kids, they will try to get away with as much as you let them.

I couldn't agree more. Was just pointing out the argument against our viewpoint. "Our", meaning everyone here except for gil who clearly supports cheating (I'm kidding man! Just having fun)

Posted by Benis on 11/17/2021 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by digitalv on 11/15/2021 1:59:00 PM (view original):
I alerted them to a user that has 3 teams in one world the other day (2 D1 and a D3). They even went on to say they thought it was overkill to have that many teams in the same world. Now I want to see what they end up doing with all those IDs

If that person is violating the 1000 mile rule and frequents the message boards then they should be banned absolutely. There is no way someone who comes on here doesn't know about the rules, it's talked about frequently.

And that's my issue with the whole AB thing. He knows the rules. He's even broken them in the past and was warned. So let's suspend reality for a second and this alt account was actually his wife's - wouldn't a reasonable person who is on thin ice say "hey honey don't pick a team close to mine, I don't want to be seen as breaking the rules again". Give me a break.

From one of their D1s to their D3 school there is 131 mile difference. Their D1s are in compliance of the FPG.

Last forum post off of one of the accounts: 10/27/21

Posted by digitalv on 11/17/2021 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 11/16/2021 9:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/15/2021 4:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by digitalv on 11/15/2021 1:59:00 PM (view original):
I alerted them to a user that has 3 teams in one world the other day (2 D1 and a D3). They even went on to say they thought it was overkill to have that many teams in the same world. Now I want to see what they end up doing with all those IDs

The bad thing about this, is there's likely a way that this is legal, regarding fairplay guidelines (I don't know because I don't measure miles between schools because I don't take part in trying to squeak by the rules. I just play NORMAL). And with that in mind, it's possible that NOTHING gets done. If he's in like D3 Hawaii and like D1 New Mexico and Maine (random locations), he's in compliance.

Goofy? Absolutely!
Breaking fairplay guidelines as they are? Maybe not.

Top-the crazy thing is you could have either 7 or 8 teams in a world and STILL be within the FPGs. Awhile back someone figured it out but to get that many you'd need a team in HI, AK and PR.

Because level of competition doesn't matter, which is dumb. CS doesn't think if a coach has a D1 and a D3, even within the 1,000 mile radius, that it's an issue because obviously they would NEVER use their D1 scouting budget to help out their D3 team too.

i don't think this is accurate. in the olden days, the rule we heard was 1000 miles in the same division is too close. but the written FPGs have said just 1000 miles, doesn't matter same division or otherwise, for as long as i've been here (14 yrs?). i think anyway. some time when seble took over, so like 11-12 years ago, he started enforcing the 1000 miles across divisions, but most of us didn't realize that. but eventually FPGs were posted more prominently and they actually started being enforced. some folks (like myself) were forced to move within 1000 mile schools from different divisions, and that basically is where we've been for some time now. at least 7 years i'd guess since there was much ambiguity about the same vs different division thing. but tons of ambiguity before that.

in my view, the reason this multiple team thing has been a problem for so long generally comes down to 3 things -
1) the starting point was so murky. FPGs were written begrudgingly and then ignored - the original admin / game creator openly ignored them. plus the enforced rules were not what was written. also the FPGs were virtually un-findable and most folks didn't know they existed. finally, the debate back then was centered on 'should folks be able to collude in recruiting', with many folks arguing, yes. therefore the 1000 mile stuff was a much lesser concern and the circumstances around it stayed murky for a long time. for example, when i joined, one of the most popular coaches in the game had two schools 10 miles away in the same conference in the same division, and folks were fine with that. the most successful coach in the game had two schools in the same small state, albeit d1 and d3.
2) the rule fundamentally made no sense from day 1, it was written as 1000 miles, but there was virtually zero concern across divisions (FSS/potential didn't exist) while two 1000 mile away schools in the same division would play themselves in the NT and recruiting internationals and stuff. so from day 1 the approach to FPGs was very much that each individual had their own interpretation, because basically there were no FGPs, and then there were FGPs that made very little sense that the game creators weren't really behind - so there was minimal community adoption for a long time.
3) when it got to the point where it felt pretty clear multiple teams per world shouldn't be allowed (7-10 years ago?), CS wouldn't step up and make the rule change (to limit to 1 team / world) and deal with the ramifications (helping folks get jobs in other worlds and stuff, and dealing with some folks quitting in protest i suppose).

so the issue has dragged on in limbo ever since. folks like dogg will never be satisfied with the current rule, which i get and have no objection to, there's a legitimate and sincerely held gripe there. but some of those same folks also won't accept the current rule, they'll start threads calling out folks with multiple teams who are in compliance and create lots of drama for those individuals and the community, and generally drag things through the muck for all eternity, until they get their way. which i do object to. but it is what it is, there have always been people like that, and there always will be. its exactly where we were 8 years ago or so when this was a big to do. and i have the exact same position i had then - 1000 miles is kind of a dumb rule, it seemed dumb the first time i heard it and that's never changed. but i could live with it. other folks can't, or choose not to, and we can either bicker for all eternity, or just draw the line at 1 team per world and be done with it.

"they'll start threads calling out folks with multiple teams who are in compliance"

I don't recall any threads about people with multiple teams who are compliant with the current rules. It's only when they are breaking the rules (often in a very sneaky way) that they get called out.

Another thing to consider - the game has changed. Now with 3.0 your d2 and d1 teams in the same world are recruiting from the same exact pool unlike previously. With a limited scouting budget, it's a big advantage to use the larger d1 budget to help your d2 team scout.

One solution could be to just program all this stuff in when signing up for teams. If you go to sign up an account, you get asked if you have another account already and then you can link them in some way. Then when you try to apply for a job, it can automatically check if you are too close or not. Then there is no more of this BS around hidden alt accounts or "not realizing your teams were too close".

I have no faith this would be implemented but it's an idea.

"they'll start threads calling out folks with multiple teams who are in compliance" - well, there was definitely a specific one i was referring to... but folks bring up the 1000 mile rule and not liking it sort of all the time, i guess that is more relevant.

not really important though. i don't want it to be lost in my post that i support the 1 team / world rule, and have much longer than i actually wanted it on a personal basis, which is a fairly recent development. and the reason came across more spiteful than intended! the reason i support it is this... i am glad there are folks like dogg and benis who are passionate about the game, to the point that it deeply offenses their sensibilities to have fairness issues dealt with poorly. to the point where it makes it hard to enjoy the game in spite of even relatively minor fairness issues. i would rather meet them where they stand on this issue and have them content than to argue about it forever, basically.

i used to approach this stuff pretty similarly myself. it was sort of crushing to me when i was new to d1 and started getting regular collusion sitemails. i viewed those folks really harshly, too. it took a lot of time and conversations with those same folks to realize, although it honestly still half way baffles me... that what i thought was common sense fairness, really wasn't that common. a substantial number of folks i semi-confronted after a collusive sitemail saw nothing wrong with those actions. how, i thought... just take it to its logical conclusion and the absurdity is self-evident! but apparently it isn't. and therefore what i took as blatant disregard for fair play (in the general sense, not specifically the FPGs), was often more of a difference of opinion on how things should be. anyway, i guess i have sort of accepted a lot of folks just don't think like me on this stuff, that what i thought was obvious or universal, isn't, and that my view isn't really more valid than anyone else's, even if those views seem bat **** crazy from where i'm standing.

so yeah, i'm glad we have the doggs of the world, even on this issue... even if i'm not glad about the stink raised on this kind of stuff, on what i consider sort of fringe FPG issues, and i do think those issues are over-elevated on the forums and that it sets a bad vibe. perhaps i only consider them fringe because in my time, recruiting collusion was rampant, and the state of fair play now is vastly better. but anyway, the bottom line is, i'd rather have the doggs of the world as content (well content enough i suppose) community members, than to fight over where to draw the line on multiple teams, or have them quit or stop being so involved. dogg himself is a great member of the community, that's kinda why he's my example here, virtually everyone seems to think that? but i do hope that over time those folks will soften their opinions a bit, as they recognize that there are a lot of people who just genuinely, with no bad intentions, disagree with their position on what is fair.