Posted by tangplay on 11/25/2021 10:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 7:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 11/25/2021 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/25/2021 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 8:41:00 AM (view original):
I respectfully disagree. Evolution is NOT a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be proven by any observational standard and therefore by the creed of science itself, can never be more than a theory.

This IS a hill I will die on. Should you wish to have a discussion....you know where to find me.

Happy Thanksgiving.

False. We have observed plenty of evolution, even things that might be considered macroevolution.

MRSA didn't exist until the 1960s.

As a result of poaching, African elephant populations are dramatically altered from only a few decades ago. Females without tusks are exploding in population in spite of the fact that this gene is deadly to male offspring. The mechanism here is obvious and the results are both predictable and undeniably occurring.

I mean, we literally bred dogs into tons of different species. How someone can claim that evolution is improbable or impossible is absurd.

Gravity is also a theory.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, EVERYBODY!!!

I'll unblock this post by tang to make a point.

I agree there are many different breeds of dog (canine) but never a different species. A dog is still a dog. A dog will never be a cat. A cat will never be a monkey. A monkey will never be a man.

The mistake here is incorrectly confusing species with more general delineations such as kingdom, phylum, class, order, family and genus.

It's possible to evolve different breeds but over a long enough timeframe, completely impossible to evolve different species?

Also a reminder that evolution does not say humans evolved from modern-day monkeys, it says humans and monkeys had the same evolutionary ancestor, which is why we share so much DNA.

I think his point was that you misused the term species.
Wolves and dogs are canines - same species.

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/26/2021 12:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 7:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 11/25/2021 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/25/2021 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 8:41:00 AM (view original):
I respectfully disagree. Evolution is NOT a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be proven by any observational standard and therefore by the creed of science itself, can never be more than a theory.

This IS a hill I will die on. Should you wish to have a discussion....you know where to find me.

Happy Thanksgiving.

False. We have observed plenty of evolution, even things that might be considered macroevolution.

MRSA didn't exist until the 1960s.

As a result of poaching, African elephant populations are dramatically altered from only a few decades ago. Females without tusks are exploding in population in spite of the fact that this gene is deadly to male offspring. The mechanism here is obvious and the results are both predictable and undeniably occurring.

I mean, we literally bred dogs into tons of different species. How someone can claim that evolution is improbable or impossible is absurd.

Gravity is also a theory.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, EVERYBODY!!!

I'll unblock this post by tang to make a point.

I agree there are many different breeds of dog (canine) but never a different species. A dog is still a dog. A dog will never be a cat. A cat will never be a monkey. A monkey will never be a man.

The mistake here is incorrectly confusing species with more general delineations such as kingdom, phylum, class, order, family and genus.

This is both true and not true. Humans domesticated wolves and then bred the resulting domestic dogs into a variety of breeds. All of those breeds are the same species. They are not the same species as wolves. Likewise, domestic horses, cattle, and cats are all different species from their wild ancestors.

Dogs and wolves both belong to the species of Canis Lupis. They are related sub species.
They easily can reproduce together.
Same species..

On the evolution of humans and evolution in general the Catholic Church strikes a balance. It says it supports the theory of evolution except in the case of humans and accepts Adam and Eve.

With no disrespect to any religion I just wonder that after so much evolution occurred why would God create Adam as an upright hairless ape. Why not a newer grander design.....why so similar.
And Eve came from a spare rib hence the Jewish tradition of Sunday night Chinese food.
I’m only kidding.

Posted by laramiebob on 11/25/2021 7:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by lostnfound74 on 11/24/2021 6:59:00 PM (view original):
Have fun with that last one.. Good that we are more civil than a year ago

but IMO the biggest hoaxes ever thrust upon mankind are Evolution, Global warming, and the 'No God' narrative seen in our universities..

I cannot prove this, but just look at the carnage, in lost souls.. It is sad.. You see the hype keeps us from looking at anything else.. and a lot of this world is in fear.. and fear causes stress which causes heart problems.. anyhow, G to go

Talk later

Yea buddy. Happy Thanksgiving/boxing day!

IMO, the two LARGEST hoaxes thrust on mankind is the whole Christian myth/story.
Not that there wasn't a Jesus Christ. There may have been.
BUT, all that other stuff put in that book to control people??? Nah. Men's attempt to control the behavior of others particularly women.

Evolution is definitely NOT a hoax. It is a well-established FACT!
The fact that YOU choose to reject known facts is YOUR issue, not the rest of the Globes.
Evolution (in FACT) is HOW all things work. You evolve or you perish.
That's HOW things work. I think it's called entropy. "ALL things must Grow or die". That's the Law.
God's Law, if you believe that way.
You can't just reject evolution. It just reveals your ignorance.
AND, as for Global Warming............ you already admitted it's happening, you just deny we are a part of it.
Which is also (sorry!) REAL Stupid!!

Believe what you want to, but rejecting known FACT is just silly and makes you look really ignorant!

No it is dead wrong to call someone ignorant because they don’t or won’t believe what you believe.
It is toxic to speak that way.

Religion and politics are different. We observe and record current events and there is constant data.

Religion is faith and the bibles and some other writing are the source or history to believers.
There are countless millions of really smart and brilliant people who believe in the Bible stories and dismiss evolution of humans.

While I disagree about the Bible explanation it is terrible to call them ignorant. That is completely disregarding the role of religion in human
beings and the importance of religion to so much of the world.

When people of the books try to put religious teachings in schools to counter science then I have a problem. But I will not call them or their beliefs ignorant.

Posted by Jetson21 on 11/26/2021 10:16:00 AM (view original):
On the evolution of humans and evolution in general the Catholic Church strikes a balance. It says it supports the theory of evolution except in the case of humans and accepts Adam and Eve.

With no disrespect to any religion I just wonder that after so much evolution occurred why would God create Adam as an upright hairless ape. Why not a newer grander design.....why so similar.
And Eve came from a spare rib hence the Jewish tradition of Sunday night Chinese food.
I’m only kidding.

Humans just so happened to share a ton of DNA with other primates and also a very similar structure and also parts that are useless to us but would have been useful for a genetic ancestor

Happy holiday to All of the non sports people.
and for those unaware Bronxcheer has been released from his suspended animation.

Posted by Jetson21 on 11/26/2021 10:05:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/26/2021 12:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 7:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 11/25/2021 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/25/2021 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 8:41:00 AM (view original):
I respectfully disagree. Evolution is NOT a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be proven by any observational standard and therefore by the creed of science itself, can never be more than a theory.

This IS a hill I will die on. Should you wish to have a discussion....you know where to find me.

Happy Thanksgiving.

False. We have observed plenty of evolution, even things that might be considered macroevolution.

MRSA didn't exist until the 1960s.

As a result of poaching, African elephant populations are dramatically altered from only a few decades ago. Females without tusks are exploding in population in spite of the fact that this gene is deadly to male offspring. The mechanism here is obvious and the results are both predictable and undeniably occurring.

I mean, we literally bred dogs into tons of different species. How someone can claim that evolution is improbable or impossible is absurd.

Gravity is also a theory.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, EVERYBODY!!!

I'll unblock this post by tang to make a point.

I agree there are many different breeds of dog (canine) but never a different species. A dog is still a dog. A dog will never be a cat. A cat will never be a monkey. A monkey will never be a man.

The mistake here is incorrectly confusing species with more general delineations such as kingdom, phylum, class, order, family and genus.

This is both true and not true. Humans domesticated wolves and then bred the resulting domestic dogs into a variety of breeds. All of those breeds are the same species. They are not the same species as wolves. Likewise, domestic horses, cattle, and cats are all different species from their wild ancestors.

Dogs and wolves both belong to the species of Canis Lupis. They are related sub species.
They easily can reproduce together.
Same species..

While you can certainly find some experts who will agree with you, my understanding is that the prevailing view is that dogs are better classified as canis familiaris than canis lupus familiaris; that is, dogs are more appropriately thought of as a separate species than wolves.

The reproduction standard is clearly ridiculous. By that standard lions and tigers are the same species. So are donkeys and horses. But their mixed offspring must be a different species, 'cause they can't reproduce with anything.

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/25/2021 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 8:41:00 AM (view original):
I respectfully disagree. Evolution is NOT a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be proven by any observational standard and therefore by the creed of science itself, can never be more than a theory.

This IS a hill I will die on. Should you wish to have a discussion....you know where to find me.

Happy Thanksgiving.

False. We have observed plenty of evolution, even things that might be considered macroevolution.

MRSA didn't exist until the 1960s.

As a result of poaching, African elephant populations are dramatically altered from only a few decades ago. Females without tusks are exploding in population in spite of the fact that this gene is deadly to male offspring. The mechanism here is obvious and the results are both predictable and undeniably occurring.

I believe what you refer to as evolution, and the term is loaded with equivocation, is instead more related to mutations or things like horizontal gene transfers. From this point forward when I refer to evolution, I do it strictly in the darwinian sense. That would be your macroevolution. That has never been observed.

MRSA is an example a bacterium that has beed damaged. Far from evolving into a stronger resistant cell, it's DNA has switches that are "turned off" or broken and genetic material; that is missing. In other words there is less genetic material. And that's why it survives. The mechanism used by the anti-body to kill the virus, starvation-membrane damage-loss of functions like reproduction...etc, are now gone. Once the antibodies are removed, the mutated gene carrying microbes will eventually die off and be replaced by the stronger original strain. That is not evolution. Not in the Darwinian sense.

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/26/2021 4:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 11/26/2021 10:05:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/26/2021 12:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 7:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 11/25/2021 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/25/2021 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 8:41:00 AM (view original):
I respectfully disagree. Evolution is NOT a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be proven by any observational standard and therefore by the creed of science itself, can never be more than a theory.

This IS a hill I will die on. Should you wish to have a discussion....you know where to find me.

Happy Thanksgiving.

False. We have observed plenty of evolution, even things that might be considered macroevolution.

MRSA didn't exist until the 1960s.

As a result of poaching, African elephant populations are dramatically altered from only a few decades ago. Females without tusks are exploding in population in spite of the fact that this gene is deadly to male offspring. The mechanism here is obvious and the results are both predictable and undeniably occurring.

I mean, we literally bred dogs into tons of different species. How someone can claim that evolution is improbable or impossible is absurd.

Gravity is also a theory.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, EVERYBODY!!!

I'll unblock this post by tang to make a point.

I agree there are many different breeds of dog (canine) but never a different species. A dog is still a dog. A dog will never be a cat. A cat will never be a monkey. A monkey will never be a man.

The mistake here is incorrectly confusing species with more general delineations such as kingdom, phylum, class, order, family and genus.

This is both true and not true. Humans domesticated wolves and then bred the resulting domestic dogs into a variety of breeds. All of those breeds are the same species. They are not the same species as wolves. Likewise, domestic horses, cattle, and cats are all different species from their wild ancestors.

Dogs and wolves both belong to the species of Canis Lupis. They are related sub species.
They easily can reproduce together.
Same species..

While you can certainly find some experts who will agree with you, my understanding is that the prevailing view is that dogs are better classified as canis familiaris than canis lupus familiaris; that is, dogs are more appropriately thought of as a separate species than wolves.

The reproduction standard is clearly ridiculous. By that standard lions and tigers are the same species. So are donkeys and horses. But their mixed offspring must be a different species, 'cause they can't reproduce with anything.

Dogs and wolves offspring can reproduce showing just how closely related they are.

It is my understanding that the separate species was originally the consensus but that it has very recent years been replaced with single species.

Yup. The believers would rather believe in a literal "immaculate contraception" than just accept that any God they may believe in has "mysterious ways" that they are NOT intended to know............. and thus they reject that which is readily apparent because it doesn't FIT their preconceived notion.

I'll say it again. It's really simple Doug. ALL things must grow or die.
It's the Law.
Stop growing, begin dying.
Evolve or perish.
It's the Creator's design.

Posted by DougOut on 11/26/2021 7:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/25/2021 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 8:41:00 AM (view original):
I respectfully disagree. Evolution is NOT a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be proven by any observational standard and therefore by the creed of science itself, can never be more than a theory.

This IS a hill I will die on. Should you wish to have a discussion....you know where to find me.

Happy Thanksgiving.

False. We have observed plenty of evolution, even things that might be considered macroevolution.

MRSA didn't exist until the 1960s.

As a result of poaching, African elephant populations are dramatically altered from only a few decades ago. Females without tusks are exploding in population in spite of the fact that this gene is deadly to male offspring. The mechanism here is obvious and the results are both predictable and undeniably occurring.

I believe what you refer to as evolution, and the term is loaded with equivocation, is instead more related to mutations or things like horizontal gene transfers. From this point forward when I refer to evolution, I do it strictly in the darwinian sense. That would be your macroevolution. That has never been observed.

MRSA is an example a bacterium that has beed damaged. Far from evolving into a stronger resistant cell, it's DNA has switches that are "turned off" or broken and genetic material; that is missing. In other words there is less genetic material. And that's why it survives. The mechanism used by the anti-body to kill the virus, starvation-membrane damage-loss of functions like reproduction...etc, are now gone. Once the antibodies are removed, the mutated gene carrying microbes will eventually die off and be replaced by the stronger original strain. That is not evolution. Not in the Darwinian sense.

Why the heck don’t you post real posts more often?

dahs: Is this just a list of vaguely related jargon you found to try to intimidate me out of the conversation? What do UV rays have to do with evolution? I've been pretty clear about this, but nobody reads everything, so I'll just ask... you know I'm a working scientist, right?

Well then, allow me to explain.

My understanding is evolutionists believe life originated by natural processes 3.8 billion years ago. I'm going to assume you are going with the primordial soup scenario. This introduces our probability factor which I will not dwell on here. Suffice to say there are over 300 different types of amino acids but only 20 are present in living matter. For starters, your soup needs a pretty defined recipe. Each amino acid comes in two shapes commonly referred to a left-handed and right-handed. ONLY left-handed amino acids are used in biological proteins. Next, these various left-handed amino acids must bond in the correct order or it will not function properly. Next you need an energy source. (My side says the sun isn't powerful enough as an energy source, however I PERSONALLY THINK A BOLT OF LIGHTNING would suffice. I'm going against my side and giving you an energy source.) .............................................

THIS IS WHERE OXYGEN comes in. Also water and ultra-violet radiation. Your goop has just been jump started into it's evolutionary function except...the chemistry goes the wrong way. You haven't developed a cell membrane. You haven't had time. Your bonding requires polymerization which releases water but excess water breaks up polymers. Your newly forming DNA cannot last long in water (hydrolysis) outside a cell, which is a very sophisticated membrane requiring time, you don't have, to evolve. The suns radiation will destroy these unprotected chemicals as will oxygen. (More about that in a moment.)

Finally, natural selection cannot be invoked at this pre-biotic level. You can't do that until you have your first living cell which cannot be produced under those conditions

Were you aware that scientists have created "life" in laboratory conditions? Well......they call it life. It took a lot of trial and error and many experiments until they made their version of the SOUP. They were quite meticulous about it. The proper chemicals introduced at the right times in the needed amounts at the right temperatures and so on. They wrote a paper on it. There was one small problem. The experiment was done in an atmosphere devoid of oxygen. You can't make the stuff if oxygen is present.

Of course there's always an explanation. Now it's "Well. there was no oxygen on early earth and the first life lived on carbon dioxide like plants do and they expelled oxygen and that's why we have an oxygen atmosphere."

Finally, I am up to my elbows in books and notes looking for this stuff. Let's take a step back please.

ALLS I SAID WAS - EVOLUTION IS A THEORY and not a fact. I often look up the theory of evolution. I've never looked up the fact of evolution. I would prefer not to go through this every evening, however I would be more than willing to give you a list of books OR you can search up some books on counterpoints to evolution yourself. There is another side you know. And it's based on science.

Here's an easy thing for starters. Go to your you tube and enter antibiotic resistant bacteria. You will find several that support your view. You will also see one entitled Antibiotic resistance and bacterial evolution: What's the real story.

I'm going to have cake and ice cream now. Have a good evening.

Posted by DougOut on 11/26/2021 7:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/25/2021 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 11/25/2021 8:41:00 AM (view original):
I respectfully disagree. Evolution is NOT a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be proven by any observational standard and therefore by the creed of science itself, can never be more than a theory.

This IS a hill I will die on. Should you wish to have a discussion....you know where to find me.

Happy Thanksgiving.

False. We have observed plenty of evolution, even things that might be considered macroevolution.

MRSA didn't exist until the 1960s.

As a result of poaching, African elephant populations are dramatically altered from only a few decades ago. Females without tusks are exploding in population in spite of the fact that this gene is deadly to male offspring. The mechanism here is obvious and the results are both predictable and undeniably occurring.

I believe what you refer to as evolution, and the term is loaded with equivocation, is instead more related to mutations or things like horizontal gene transfers. From this point forward when I refer to evolution, I do it strictly in the darwinian sense. That would be your macroevolution. That has never been observed.

MRSA is an example a bacterium that has beed damaged. Far from evolving into a stronger resistant cell, it's DNA has switches that are "turned off" or broken and genetic material; that is missing. In other words there is less genetic material. And that's why it survives. The mechanism used by the anti-body to kill the virus, starvation-membrane damage-loss of functions like reproduction...etc, are now gone. Once the antibodies are removed, the mutated gene carrying microbes will eventually die off and be replaced by the stronger original strain. That is not evolution. Not in the Darwinian sense.

This is so interesting. I looked into it and the explanation is that MRSA evolved from the Staph bacteria through the horizontal gene process you referenced and it is considered evolution - maybe micro evolution but evolution nonetheless.

And the Covid variations are also the same type of evolution.

It is my understanding that the evolution of Darwinism occurs over long periods of time so you don’t observe it over short intervals and it hasn’t been seriously studied for very long.

One final point, and we'll use the dogs to make it.

A Great Dane is a wolf minus some genes. So is a lab or a poodle. Each one has less genetic material than the wolf.

The point is: you can breed down but you can never come back up. You can never beed dogs and get a wolf.

No matter what you may point to as evidence of evolution, I can guarantee you there will not be new or different or more advanced or evolved genes. That would be evolution in the Darwinian sense.

G'nite

I don’t think that anyone says that breeding is evolution. Isn’t the genetic material still the same?

Also I thought that evolution describes a natural process.

When evolution began back in the days of the primordial soup weren’t temperatures on Earth much higher especially in certain parts if the world?
at least 500 degrees F?