I think his injuries keep him out. There were a lot of seasons effecting games played and PA in those seasons. If he just had about 10-20 more games played in 3-4 seasons they could not keep him out.

Posted by d_rock97 on 12/4/2021 12:00:00 AM (view original):
Every year, there’s a name that gets me livid who doesn’t get enough votes.

In the past it was Raines, EM, Bagwell, and Larry Walker (I posted about him extensively here).

This year it’s Scott Rolen. Does 7 Gold Gloves and a 122 OPS+ mean nothing nowadays?!?

He was the quintessential slick-fielding, slugging, unicorn 3B that everybody talks about.

3B unfairly gets tied in with 1B and COF in terms of expected offensive production, and he lived up to the billing, in the steroid era, albeit without too many 30 HR seasons, but to me, he’s the 90s/00s Ron Santo, and he needs to be in asap!

Rolen should be in, and he may make it. Early known ballots look good for him.

The one I'm watching most closely is Schilling. If he doesn't get in on this, his final year, it'll be disappointing. Shameful to imagine a guy being denied the HOF simply because the voters don't like his personal politics.

Schilling, Rolen & Allen are three Phillies who deserve to be there. And I'm pretty ambivalent about the Phillies.

About 5% of votes made public.
Rolen and Schilling at 77.8%
while the needlers Bonds and Clemens are at 66.7%.
A-Rod at 44% and Ramirez at 33%.
Abreu - 22% and Jroll at 11%.

About 5% of votes made public.
Rolen and Schilling at 77.8%
while the needlers Bonds and Clemens are at 66.7%.
A-Rod at 44% and Ramirez at 33%.
Abreu - 22% and Jroll at 11%.

Posted by jmcraven74 on 12/6/2021 5:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 12/4/2021 12:00:00 AM (view original):
Every year, there’s a name that gets me livid who doesn’t get enough votes.

In the past it was Raines, EM, Bagwell, and Larry Walker (I posted about him extensively here).

This year it’s Scott Rolen. Does 7 Gold Gloves and a 122 OPS+ mean nothing nowadays?!?

He was the quintessential slick-fielding, slugging, unicorn 3B that everybody talks about.

3B unfairly gets tied in with 1B and COF in terms of expected offensive production, and he lived up to the billing, in the steroid era, albeit without too many 30 HR seasons, but to me, he’s the 90s/00s Ron Santo, and he needs to be in asap!

Rolen should be in, and he may make it. Early known ballots look good for him.

The one I'm watching most closely is Schilling. If he doesn't get in on this, his final year, it'll be disappointing. Shameful to imagine a guy being denied the HOF simply because the voters don't like his personal politics.

Schilling, Rolen & Allen are three Phillies who deserve to be there. And I'm pretty ambivalent about the Phillies.

The reason Schilling shouldn't be in the HOF has nothing to do with his politics. He just wasn't good enough.

Schilling pitched from 1988 - 2007
Roger Clements pitched from 1984-2007
Greg Maddux pitched from 1986-2008
Randy Johnson pitched from 1988-2009
Pedro Martinez pitched from 1992-2009

If you are, at best, the 5th-best pitcher of your contemporaries, you're not a Hall of Famer. When you have 4 dudes who overlapped virtually your entire career and you don't hold a candle to any of them, I'm sorry, you don't need to be in. If I were going to pick a 5th guy, my personal preference would be Smoltz. For me, Glavine, Moose, and Kevin Brown also get caught in this same net. And if you don't think Kevin Brown belongs in that same conversation, look again.

Curt Schilling - 3261 innings, 216-146, 127 ERA+
Kevin Brown - 3256.1 innings, 211-144, 127 ERA+

There were way more teams in Schillings era then in the 30s thru early 80s.
5th of some 30 teams much better then 4th of 16 teams.
plus clemens cheated and Schilling apparently did not.

Also Maddux and Pedro are 2 of the 3 greatest pitchers ( with koufax ) in the last 100 years.

It's a museum. The idea doesn't necessarily need to be to put the best n number of pitchers in. The idea is to build a picture of the history of baseball through the lens of great players that all fans of all ages can relate to. It doesn't matter so much to me whether guys like Schilling and Mussina cross some line of talent that has typically gotten in. As you say, there are more players now. That doesn't mean we need to put more into the Hall.

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/6/2021 11:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jmcraven74 on 12/6/2021 5:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 12/4/2021 12:00:00 AM (view original):
Every year, there’s a name that gets me livid who doesn’t get enough votes.

In the past it was Raines, EM, Bagwell, and Larry Walker (I posted about him extensively here).

This year it’s Scott Rolen. Does 7 Gold Gloves and a 122 OPS+ mean nothing nowadays?!?

He was the quintessential slick-fielding, slugging, unicorn 3B that everybody talks about.

3B unfairly gets tied in with 1B and COF in terms of expected offensive production, and he lived up to the billing, in the steroid era, albeit without too many 30 HR seasons, but to me, he’s the 90s/00s Ron Santo, and he needs to be in asap!

Rolen should be in, and he may make it. Early known ballots look good for him.

The one I'm watching most closely is Schilling. If he doesn't get in on this, his final year, it'll be disappointing. Shameful to imagine a guy being denied the HOF simply because the voters don't like his personal politics.

Schilling, Rolen & Allen are three Phillies who deserve to be there. And I'm pretty ambivalent about the Phillies.

The reason Schilling shouldn't be in the HOF has nothing to do with his politics. He just wasn't good enough.

Schilling pitched from 1988 - 2007
Roger Clements pitched from 1984-2007
Greg Maddux pitched from 1986-2008
Randy Johnson pitched from 1988-2009
Pedro Martinez pitched from 1992-2009

If you are, at best, the 5th-best pitcher of your contemporaries, you're not a Hall of Famer. When you have 4 dudes who overlapped virtually your entire career and you don't hold a candle to any of them, I'm sorry, you don't need to be in. If I were going to pick a 5th guy, my personal preference would be Smoltz. For me, Glavine, Moose, and Kevin Brown also get caught in this same net. And if you don't think Kevin Brown belongs in that same conversation, look again.

Curt Schilling - 3261 innings, 216-146, 127 ERA+
Kevin Brown - 3256.1 innings, 211-144, 127 ERA+

I'm not sure why you have a four-pitcher-per-era limit, but to each his own. However, regardless of what you think about him being a HOFer, it's pretty clear to anyone with a brain, Schilling isn't in because he's upset some of the voters. There are multiple baseball writers who've openly said they're not voting for him due to his "divisive rhetoric" (I use quotes because I am quoting the voters), and his steadily increasing vote-total abruptly leveled-off when his comments started triggering people on the political left.

Most people (not you, I suppose) factor Schilling's 3 rings into the equation, especially since he was one of the best ever in the postseason. Far better in October than any of the other 4 contemporaries you listed.

Regarding Brown, I'd put him at 6th-best of his era, at best, so by your own definition, he's not worthy. Plus he was pretty bad in October. Plus he was listed in the Mitchell Report, which is obviously why he was one-and-done on the HOF ballot. Also, if you subscribe to the baseball-reference HOF comps, Brown falls short across the board. Schilling exceeds the average criteria of HOF pitchers, so if elected, he would be "above average" as compared to his fellow pitcher enshrine-ees. I'm good with that.

Debates like this are pretty useless, for the most part.
BUT, no way is Schilling as good as R. Johnson, Pedro, or Maddux.
Clemens shouldn't be in either IMO. IF no Bonds, then NO Clemens.
THAT'S an easy call for me.

Posted by laramiebob on 12/8/2021 7:41:00 AM (view original):
Debates like this are pretty useless, for the most part.
BUT, no way is Schilling as good as R. Johnson, Pedro, or Maddux.
Clemens shouldn't be in either IMO. IF no Bonds, then NO Clemens.
THAT'S an easy call for me.

Agreed.

I'll add, though, that of the eligible pitchers with 3000 Ks, he and Clemens are the only two not enshrined. Clemens because of PEDs, Schilling because the voters don't like him. Sabathia, Scherzer & Verlander will all get in, I think.

Schilling also had about 700 more Ks than Kevin Brown over roughly the same number of innings.

Posted by Jetson21 on 12/7/2021 12:00:00 AM (view original):
Also Maddux and Pedro are 2 of the 3 greatest pitchers ( with koufax ) in the last 100 years.

Koufax barely barely barely makes the conversation, and as much as I appreciate his brief brilliance and Pedro, their status as any kind of 'best ever' hinges on 5-7ish lites out seasons. Good for them. Guess what ! Many others had peak stretches as well, AND longevity and durability.

You said the past 100 years. Maybe you meant to stop at 35 with Maddux.

Ever heard of :

Kershaw ?
Seaver ?
Gibson ?
Spahn ?
C. Hubbell ?

Posted by Mwett on 12/8/2021 7:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 12/7/2021 12:00:00 AM (view original):
Also Maddux and Pedro are 2 of the 3 greatest pitchers ( with koufax ) in the last 100 years.

Koufax barely barely barely makes the conversation, and as much as I appreciate his brief brilliance and Pedro, their status as any kind of 'best ever' hinges on 5-7ish lites out seasons. Good for them. Guess what ! Many others had peak stretches as well, AND longevity and durability.

You said the past 100 years. Maybe you meant to stop at 35 with Maddux.

Ever heard of :

Kershaw ?
Seaver ?
Gibson ?
Spahn ?
C. Hubbell ?

son are you high? Carl Hubbell ahead of Maddux?

dear god this thread is even dumber than the usual HOF thread

Posted by Mwett on 12/8/2021 7:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 12/7/2021 12:00:00 AM (view original):
Also Maddux and Pedro are 2 of the 3 greatest pitchers ( with koufax ) in the last 100 years.

Koufax barely barely barely makes the conversation, and as much as I appreciate his brief brilliance and Pedro, their status as any kind of 'best ever' hinges on 5-7ish lites out seasons. Good for them. Guess what ! Many others had peak stretches as well, AND longevity and durability.

You said the past 100 years. Maybe you meant to stop at 35 with Maddux.

Ever heard of :

Kershaw ?
Seaver ?
Gibson ?
Spahn ?
C. Hubbell ?

Eh eh eh eh!

Posted by 06gsp on 12/8/2021 8:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Mwett on 12/8/2021 7:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 12/7/2021 12:00:00 AM (view original):
Also Maddux and Pedro are 2 of the 3 greatest pitchers ( with koufax ) in the last 100 years.

Koufax barely barely barely makes the conversation, and as much as I appreciate his brief brilliance and Pedro, their status as any kind of 'best ever' hinges on 5-7ish lites out seasons. Good for them. Guess what ! Many others had peak stretches as well, AND longevity and durability.

You said the past 100 years. Maybe you meant to stop at 35 with Maddux.

Ever heard of :

Kershaw ?
Seaver ?
Gibson ?
Spahn ?
C. Hubbell ?

son are you high? Carl Hubbell ahead of Maddux?

dear god this thread is even dumber than the usual HOF thread

Lol no no no no no. Hubbell was my last and least qualified, but at bare minimum the rest are at least equals and good candidates for better on the career scale than Pedro/Koufax, rebutting an opinion of one who's vote regularly is the only one that counts. If anyone has differing offerings to replace one of mine, that's fair enough. But when one offers as matter of fact "These Are Best", and they're simply not ? Uh uh.