Good to see David Ortiz make it, but…?


MLB’s all-time hits leader (Pete Rose), all-time HR leader (Barry Bonds), and all-time Cy Young leader (Roger Clemens) are not in the Hall.

Just saying.

They'll all get in, but only after they shuffle off this mortal coil.

I agree clemens and bonds should both be in.

But, you seems to have a bit of a anti clemens bias here, while full disclosure, clemens was an idol when I was growing up...

192 wins when he left boston. You only gave him 22 more ?? Really?

In 96, he pitched much better than His record showed. Sox bullpen blew more than a handful of games for him. But sill, he won 10 games. It's not unreasonable to assume a 6'4, 220 lb person would not break down the same way Pedro did.

Also, since you are comparing him to schilling, why not give roger, Curt's stats after age 34 ?

But, even if you dont, and just give roger 10 wins and 180k, for 4 seasons (97-2000), he's over 230 wins and 3000 k's. And thats if he is done in 2000, at age 37. Which seems kinda of fair.

With 3 cy's, and an mvp,, which you also left out, still seems like a pretty reasonable candidate

Like I said, I wouldn't voted for Clemens, but I'd certainly have no issue with someone who did, it all depends how you project his post Red Sox years. I could probably be convinced with the right data set to vote for him, it's really close.

Bonds is a no brainer and I think anyone who doesn't vote for him is just being spiteful.

Both Bonds and Clemens were already HOFers if they'd retired the day they supposedly started taking steroids (Clemens before the 1997 season, Bonds before the 1999 season).

Clemens before 1997 already had three Cy Youngs and won four ERA titles while pitching in a hitters park, and he led the league in strijkeouts in 1996 so he still had good stuff even though his ERA had gone up (run scoring a whole went way up starting around this time due to the increasingly rampant steroid use). It's not remotely close whether or not Clemens is a HOF caliber player without steroids. The argument against him is a moral one, a debate I stay out of because it's closer to a political argument than a baseball one, and no one's mind is changing.

here's the list of guys with 3+ Cy Young awards besides Clemens:

Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Clayton Kershaw
Pedro Martinez
Sandy Koufax
Tom Seaver
Steve Carlton
Max Scherzer
Jim Palmer

all no-brainer HOFers with the possible exception of Scherzer

when someone says No brainer

to win a argument, chances are they got no brain

Nuff said

here are the guys with 4+ ERA titles (dating back to 1901):

Christy Mathewson
Clayton Kershaw
Greg Maddux
Lefty Grove
Pedro Martinez
Pete Alexander
Randy Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Walter Johnson

that's the whole list. a who's who of the greatest pitchers of all time.

I'm beginning to see why unanimous votes for the hall never happen, get a large enough sample and the odds of a bizarre opinion get higher and higher. never thought i'd see a person argue Roger Clemens was only HOF caliber because he took steroids, but here we are.

Posted by 06gsp on 1/28/2022 8:16:00 AM (view original):
here's the list of guys with 3+ Cy Young awards besides Clemens:

Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Clayton Kershaw
Pedro Martinez
Sandy Koufax
Tom Seaver
Steve Carlton
Max Scherzer
Jim Palmer

all no-brainer HOFers with the possible exception of Scherzer

Scherzer is a lock at this point regardless of how his Mets career pans out.

I certainly think he's hall worthy, just not sure he's quite at the same level as the rest of the guys on that list, at least in the eyes of some voters who are too focused on career win totals

Posted by 06gsp on 1/31/2022 5:56:00 AM (view original):
I certainly think he's hall worthy, just not sure he's quite at the same level as the rest of the guys on that list, at least in the eyes of some voters who are too focused on career win totals

I think the view that counting stats matter for all HOFers, not just pitchers, is changing rapidly. Look at the support Scott Rolen is getting based on his metrics.

200 wins might become the new 300 wins which makes a guy like Adam Wainwright a borderline HOFer and it doesn't hurt he spent his entire career with one team.

Also, we're going to see more Buster Posey situations where guys retire early because they make so much money they don't need to play 15-20 years anymore.

Kyle Seager just retired after having a career year!