Posted by chargingryno on 2/15/2022 9:44:00 AM (view original):
Do you have the post when admin agreed with this?

the role in which a pitcher throws shouldn’t matter with fatigue - the only exception being due to appearance fatigue. But that’s not due to the role but the usage.

Where you here back when the Superman Long A loophole was a popular strategy? Several changes were made to counter it. That's when it was announced that SP used in relief would fatigue at a somewhat higher rate. If they threw a lot of pitches, the wording was vague I don't know if it applied to low pitch counts too. There were frequent updates in those days so I don't know if it's still in effect.
My observation says I get a little more long term stamina out of Starters than Relievers whether they are designated SP or RP.

I've drafted top heavy staffs for years to better deal with fatigue. I really think I deal with less fatigue issues than most because of it. When I do use SP in relief, I'm careful to keep their pitch counts as low as possible. FWIW

Three games in and the anecdotal evidence seems to strongly show that SPs used as RPs fatigue at a higher rate: https://www.whatifsports.com/mlb-l/view.asp?lid=132672

Each Marichal, Perry, & Hunter should be good for around 135-140 PCs before in-game fatigue would have a noticeable effect on performance.

In game 1, Marichal starts the 10th inning after having thrown ~100 pitches. Prior to that Inning he faced 29 batters (8.1 IP) and allowed 5 hits and 1 BB. After this point, he faces 13 batters and allows 3 H, 4 BB, and a HBP. Essentially, prior to the 100 pitch point he allowed 6/29 batters to reach base. After the 100 pitch point he allowed 8/13 batters to reach.

In game 2, Perry starts the 8th after having thrown ~100 pitches. Prior to that inning he’d faced 26 batters (6.2 IP) and allowed 3 H and 2 BB. After that point he faced 15 batters (2 IP) and allowed 4 H and 5 BB. Essentially, he allowed 5 of first 26 batters on base, then allowed 9 of last 15 batters to reach after crossing 100 pitch count.

In game 3, Hunter starts the 8th after having thrown ~100 pitches. Prior to that point he’s faced 30 batters (7 IP) and allowed 7 H and 1 BB. After that point he faced 14 batters (2 IP) and allowed 5 H and 2 BB. Essentially, prior to reaching 100 pitches 8/30 batter reached and after 100 pitches 7/14 reached.

Combined through three games:
First 100 pitches in relief: 19/85 batters reach (.2335)
Pitches 100-145 in relief: 24/42 batters reach (.5714)

Obviously, small sample… but three games that both seem to have clear lines of demarcation from pitchers who can go very deep into games, each showing what look like signs of extreme fatigue around the same point in terms of PC.

Really looks like SPs as RPs have in-game fatigue pegged to 100 pitches instead of their RL IP/G (if over 100 pitches).

I have the exact same roster with these pitchers as starters starting (with same PCs) instead of relieving in the am game so we’ll get clearer picture of their performance by PC in both roles.

Are you using these guys as Tandem B or as Long A or something else?

I ask because I have always believed that Tandem B pitchers are still considered “starters” for fatigue purposes.

Posted by contrarian23 on 2/20/2022 8:31:00 PM (view original):
Are you using these guys as Tandem B or as Long A or something else?

I ask because I have always believed that Tandem B pitchers are still considered “starters” for fatigue purposes.

RH Specialists with 140/140 pull 1 PC settings.

Both of my starters are 40IP LHP on 5/5 pull 5 settings.

You don't reduce their pitch count below 140 per appearance?

If I drop a SP into relief duty, I try to only use them a few innings, unless the entire pen is gassed...

Posted by just4me on 2/20/2022 8:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by contrarian23 on 2/20/2022 8:31:00 PM (view original):
Are you using these guys as Tandem B or as Long A or something else?

I ask because I have always believed that Tandem B pitchers are still considered “starters” for fatigue purposes.

RH Specialists with 140/140 pull 1 PC settings.

Both of my starters are 40IP LHP on 5/5 pull 5 settings.

Thank you.

I have noticed one pitcher in particular that struggles with fatigue as a Tandem B. It's the 411 inning Christy Mathewson. I set him to 70-75 pitchers, for use in every other game. 5 innings x 80 appearances shouldn't be too difficult for him, but I find that I need to rest him, or reduce his pitch counts. His RL IP/G is 6.98, so this should be ok for him...he struggles more fatigue wise in this role than any other arm I use.

Posted by DoctorKz on 2/20/2022 9:01:00 PM (view original):
You don't reduce their pitch count below 140 per appearance?

If I drop a SP into relief duty, I try to only use them a few innings, unless the entire pen is gassed...

His team is meant to be a test for in game fatigue when a SP is set as a RP vs SP set as an SP. Each pitcher should be able to go 140 without hitting fatigue

Oh those guys. We outscored them 62-5 in the opening series. My guys needed oxygen afterwards... edit- that was a + play team. The +s didn't help much. Billy Crowell got mauled...

I drew his SP as RP test #2 team tonight. That'll be a hoot...

Posted by DoctorKz on 2/20/2022 9:01:00 PM (view original):
You don't reduce their pitch count below 140 per appearance?

If I drop a SP into relief duty, I try to only use them a few innings, unless the entire pen is gassed...

Normally I don’t have SPs in relief throwing more than 35 pitches just based on usage patterns, and I would think in most cases it would be rare for any setup to have need for more than 100 pitches in relief.

This was setup as a test to explicitly test if SPs fatigue at a faster rate in-game when used in relief versus when used a starter. Given that tandems also rarely see more than 100 PC settings, I’ll probably test that setup next.

Six games in, I've lost all 6 games in the 8th inning or later, and in 5 of them, it seems very clear what's described above in regards to in-game fatigue was the culprit. In the 6th, the pitchers PC hadn't reached 100 yet, and it was a close game with a defensive error resulting in the winning runs scoring and not in-game fatigue... it's been quite the fascinating experiment to observe, and even more so watching the team just fall apart in the 8th, 9th, 10th, or 11th every game

I feel like the odds of any pitcher getting in-game fatigue and beat about as they approach 140 pitches goes up a lot, regardless. Perhaps a more predictable "control", for example start the trio with a 110 pitch limit for half the season, and document their stats. Then, at the All Star Break, switch them to relief with a 110 pitch limit for the second half, with a focus on how they perform in last 25% of pitches thrown.

That way you have the same offense/defense, same parks, pretty much the same opposition, and 2 distinct categories of usage two compare.

Just a thought.