Posted by shoe3 on 4/5/2022 8:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Shoe your magic slowdown button is ridiculous. I play just as bad or good with slowdown as I do any other setting. I just think when you lose against slow pace, it's games you expect to win so it just stands out in your mind

lol doggggg, what’s ridiculous is you cutting and running out of Iba A10.

I mentioned that I'm on the downward slide of my HD career. The end is coming at some point

Slowdown seems like magic even if you’re the favorite sometimes. Is it written into the code that running slowdown means your team makes safer passes or anything like that?

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 9:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/5/2022 8:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Shoe your magic slowdown button is ridiculous. I play just as bad or good with slowdown as I do any other setting. I just think when you lose against slow pace, it's games you expect to win so it just stands out in your mind

lol doggggg, what’s ridiculous is you cutting and running out of Iba A10.

I mentioned that I'm on the downward slide of my HD career. The end is coming at some point

Nothing is more sad than hearing vets say this!

Posted by Baums_away on 4/5/2022 9:35:00 PM (view original):
Slowdown seems like magic even if you’re the favorite sometimes. Is it written into the code that running slowdown means your team makes safer passes or anything like that?

Yeah, although those slowdown-slowdown games can yet gnarly sometimes, even for favorites. Especially when the "underdog" has some truly top-tier talent, especially shooting.

Posted by cubcub113 on 4/5/2022 9:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Shoe your magic slowdown button is ridiculous. I play just as bad or good with slowdown as I do any other setting. I just think when you lose against slow pace, it's games you expect to win so it just stands out in your mind

I do agree with the fact that losing against a slowdown hurts more because its often a 70% win probability type game. and we feel we should win 70% games about... maybe 90% of the time internally.

I do agree with shoe that slowdown is definitely too overpowered. my personal view is that if you go slow-down it should keep the opponent's players fresh just a bit more than it does right now. 3.0 has definitely tilted the scales towards slowdown some given that teams need to take more walkons in recruiting.

I would put that last bit a little different I guess. 3.0 produced more coaches who wanted to run short roster teams because of how they recruit. And I suspect this is still a big part of why CS is still seeing more complaints about uptempo press teams. Folks are choosing to play a certain way, and think the game is broken when others (Kimball, Arfy, etc) have success doing something different.

Posted by cubcub113 on 4/5/2022 9:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Baums_away on 4/5/2022 9:35:00 PM (view original):
Slowdown seems like magic even if you’re the favorite sometimes. Is it written into the code that running slowdown means your team makes safer passes or anything like that?

Yeah, although those slowdown-slowdown games can yet gnarly sometimes, even for favorites. Especially when the "underdog" has some truly top-tier talent, especially shooting.

That’s what I suspect (slowdown directly improves things like turnover tendency and FG%), others insist it doesn’t directly, only through fatigue mitigation. Like I said, interpretation. But one thing is indisputable I think, uptempo has very clear disadvantages for most teams - you will definitely see fatigue related issues through stamina drain when you go uptempo, it’s just a matter of degree as to how well your team can withstand it. But for all teams that can run it (ie, non FB teams) slowdown has no such disadvantage. The only thing you need to think about is having your top players on the court in their optimal spots for the most amount of time. The only problem is that you might just draw the you suck card for the game, and run out of possessions, but that can happen if your opponent plays slowdown, too. You can’t drag a slowdown opponent into more possessions (at least not more good possessions for you, because of that stamina drain). So that concern is a non-factor, really.

Again, my position is just that both non-standard options should come with appropriate risks to match the rewards. Slowing down against a press should not decrease turnovers, it should be the opposite. Running down the shot clock against man or zone shouldn’t lead to better FG%, it should be the opposite, as you’re passing up open shots in the normal flow of your offense.

OK, Chris has gotten back to me (he was out for a few days), and has cleared up a few things. As we suspected, those initial figures were not exactly as they were first presented.

”Sure, tempo when w/l are two fields set per team, and is overridden every time a user changes it. So whenever I sent the response to you that is what the breakdown was for current settings across the game. We don't audit say for instance you used slowdown 16/17 games, so isn't a season long cumulative average just a snapshot in time. Whatever users had set time I queried the database is what reflected in the breakdown. This was also game-wide not specific to your world or division. But I made sure it was specific to actual user controlled teams.

This is the breakdown as of this A.M

2860 user controlled teams in HD (so 2860 x 2 = 5720 tempo settings for winning/losing)

When losing:
Fast Paced: 2595 / 2860 = 90.7%
Normal: 244 / 2860 = 8.5%
Slowdown: 21 / 2860 = 0.7%

When Winning:
Fast Paced: 91 / 2860
Normal: 291 / 2860
Slowdown: 2478 / 2860

Cumulative:
Fast: 2595+91 = 2686 / 5720 = 47%
Normal: 244+291 = 535 / 5720 = 9.3%
Slowdown: 21+2478 = 2499 / 5720 = 43.7%

As far as primary base tempo is this is the breakdown for user-controlled teams:
Fast Paced: 571 / 2860 = 20%
Normal: 1488 / 2860 = 52%
Slowdown: 801 / 2860 = 38%

Regards,
-Chris
WIS”

Posted by cubcub113 on 4/5/2022 9:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 9:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/5/2022 8:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Shoe your magic slowdown button is ridiculous. I play just as bad or good with slowdown as I do any other setting. I just think when you lose against slow pace, it's games you expect to win so it just stands out in your mind

lol doggggg, what’s ridiculous is you cutting and running out of Iba A10.

I mentioned that I'm on the downward slide of my HD career. The end is coming at some point

Nothing is more sad than hearing vets say this!

I agree. I'm not happy about it really either. But it is what it is. It's not instant. More of a slow death. Just going to drop little by little. I don't have as much time to focus like I used to, so I'm very sloppy with things now.

But I will say, I've always been impressed by the longevity of coaches here. And the dedication and discipline of this community. When I used to poke at gil for hanging around and not actually having any teams...... I get it now!

Posted by shoe3 on 4/6/2022 12:20:00 PM (view original):
OK, Chris has gotten back to me (he was out for a few days), and has cleared up a few things. As we suspected, those initial figures were not exactly as they were first presented.

”Sure, tempo when w/l are two fields set per team, and is overridden every time a user changes it. So whenever I sent the response to you that is what the breakdown was for current settings across the game. We don't audit say for instance you used slowdown 16/17 games, so isn't a season long cumulative average just a snapshot in time. Whatever users had set time I queried the database is what reflected in the breakdown. This was also game-wide not specific to your world or division. But I made sure it was specific to actual user controlled teams.

This is the breakdown as of this A.M

2860 user controlled teams in HD (so 2860 x 2 = 5720 tempo settings for winning/losing)

When losing:
Fast Paced: 2595 / 2860 = 90.7%
Normal: 244 / 2860 = 8.5%
Slowdown: 21 / 2860 = 0.7%

When Winning:
Fast Paced: 91 / 2860
Normal: 291 / 2860
Slowdown: 2478 / 2860

Cumulative:
Fast: 2595+91 = 2686 / 5720 = 47%
Normal: 244+291 = 535 / 5720 = 9.3%
Slowdown: 21+2478 = 2499 / 5720 = 43.7%

As far as primary base tempo is this is the breakdown for user-controlled teams:
Fast Paced: 571 / 2860 = 20%
Normal: 1488 / 2860 = 52%
Slowdown: 801 / 2860 = 38%

Regards,
-Chris
WIS”

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. There's soooo many human teams in D1 with 10 or less scholarship players. To me, it seems like "win button" is running a deep uptempo press team. With the right matchups, you don't even need a lot of talent to make a decent run in the NT.

Beyond fatigue and it's effects, I've never really noticed much of a difference between tempo settings. At least not enough to warrant a complaint.

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/6/2022 12:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 4/5/2022 9:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 9:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/5/2022 8:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Shoe your magic slowdown button is ridiculous. I play just as bad or good with slowdown as I do any other setting. I just think when you lose against slow pace, it's games you expect to win so it just stands out in your mind

lol doggggg, what’s ridiculous is you cutting and running out of Iba A10.

I mentioned that I'm on the downward slide of my HD career. The end is coming at some point

Nothing is more sad than hearing vets say this!

I agree. I'm not happy about it really either. But it is what it is. It's not instant. More of a slow death. Just going to drop little by little. I don't have as much time to focus like I used to, so I'm very sloppy with things now.

But I will say, I've always been impressed by the longevity of coaches here. And the dedication and discipline of this community. When I used to poke at gil for hanging around and not actually having any teams...... I get it now!

Sorry to hear that man. Just make sure to stay at Texas long enough for me to build up my Crum resume. =)

“There's soooo many human teams in D1 with 10 or less scholarship players. To me, it seems like "win button" is running a deep uptempo press team. With the right matchups, you don't even need a lot of talent to make a decent run in the NT.”

That’s kind of what I’m saying - folks choose to play a certain way, take walkons, run short rosters, then get run over by uptempo/press teams and complain it’s overpowered. But that’s a gameplay choice they’re making, and the answer to their problem is to adjust their gameplay, it’s not for the game to give them a crutch. But that’s what happened when press was neutered the first time years ago, which is why tempo is the mess it is now, why uptempo is all risk for 98% of teams, and slowdown is all reward for every team that can run it.

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/6/2022 12:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 4/5/2022 9:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 9:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/5/2022 8:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2022 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Shoe your magic slowdown button is ridiculous. I play just as bad or good with slowdown as I do any other setting. I just think when you lose against slow pace, it's games you expect to win so it just stands out in your mind

lol doggggg, what’s ridiculous is you cutting and running out of Iba A10.

I mentioned that I'm on the downward slide of my HD career. The end is coming at some point

Nothing is more sad than hearing vets say this!

I agree. I'm not happy about it really either. But it is what it is. It's not instant. More of a slow death. Just going to drop little by little. I don't have as much time to focus like I used to, so I'm very sloppy with things now.

But I will say, I've always been impressed by the longevity of coaches here. And the dedication and discipline of this community. When I used to poke at gil for hanging around and not actually having any teams...... I get it now!

I'm in the same boat. I don't care much about HD these days and keep missing recruiting days. If I ever have to spend money, I'll definitely be done.

On topic - I'm a huge slowdown wh*re. I've won many titles just playing slowdown for every single one of my games regardless of opponent, even when I'm a heavy favorite. In general, people should play MORE slowdown. They underestimate the impact of fatigue and fouling.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/6/2022 2:23:00 PM (view original):
“There's soooo many human teams in D1 with 10 or less scholarship players. To me, it seems like "win button" is running a deep uptempo press team. With the right matchups, you don't even need a lot of talent to make a decent run in the NT.”

That’s kind of what I’m saying - folks choose to play a certain way, take walkons, run short rosters, then get run over by uptempo/press teams and complain it’s overpowered. But that’s a gameplay choice they’re making, and the answer to their problem is to adjust their gameplay, it’s not for the game to give them a crutch. But that’s what happened when press was neutered the first time years ago, which is why tempo is the mess it is now, why uptempo is all risk for 98% of teams, and slowdown is all reward for every team that can run it.

It's not a game play choice to lose multiple 74/26 rolls when leading, in the same session. And I don't think anybody with an 8 man roster complains that press is too powerful when they get beat. They know what they're up against going into that setting.

I'm generally on board with the concept of "fix your own approach rather than complaining about it" (in the standard areas that we hear about it, like..... I forgot to renew, or we should get more money for RS2 so if we fail RS1 at least we can recover a little bit, or we should get more scouting money when we run out, etc). But I don't think there's one single coach here that complains press is too strong because they couldn't sign a full roster of their own. Coaches may complain at times that press is too strong. But the reason is not followed up by "because I can only sign 9 players".

Short rosters now days is due to a combination of high D1 participation and lack of REAL D1 talent. Sure, a coach can decide to aim for lesser talent. But how many piman/kimball/hawkfan91-92 rosters do you see in D1 with 60 ATH/SPD guys? Not many. So to compete with those guys, you need some talent. And there's not enough to go around. If you do wanna go the lesser talent + full roster direction, you pretty much HAVE to run press and get the high ST guys and use that approach. If you're running M2M/Zone and any offense besides fastbreak, you are NOT winning without elite talent. And lots of it. Period. There's no discussing that.

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/6/2022 7:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/6/2022 2:23:00 PM (view original):
“There's soooo many human teams in D1 with 10 or less scholarship players. To me, it seems like "win button" is running a deep uptempo press team. With the right matchups, you don't even need a lot of talent to make a decent run in the NT.”

That’s kind of what I’m saying - folks choose to play a certain way, take walkons, run short rosters, then get run over by uptempo/press teams and complain it’s overpowered. But that’s a gameplay choice they’re making, and the answer to their problem is to adjust their gameplay, it’s not for the game to give them a crutch. But that’s what happened when press was neutered the first time years ago, which is why tempo is the mess it is now, why uptempo is all risk for 98% of teams, and slowdown is all reward for every team that can run it.

It's not a game play choice to lose multiple 74/26 rolls when leading, in the same session. And I don't think anybody with an 8 man roster complains that press is too powerful when they get beat. They know what they're up against going into that setting.

I'm generally on board with the concept of "fix your own approach rather than complaining about it" (in the standard areas that we hear about it, like..... I forgot to renew, or we should get more money for RS2 so if we fail RS1 at least we can recover a little bit, or we should get more scouting money when we run out, etc). But I don't think there's one single coach here that complains press is too strong because they couldn't sign a full roster of their own. Coaches may complain at times that press is too strong. But the reason is not followed up by "because I can only sign 9 players".

Short rosters now days is due to a combination of high D1 participation and lack of REAL D1 talent. Sure, a coach can decide to aim for lesser talent. But how many piman/kimball/hawkfan91-92 rosters do you see in D1 with 60 ATH/SPD guys? Not many. So to compete with those guys, you need some talent. And there's not enough to go around. If you do wanna go the lesser talent + full roster direction, you pretty much HAVE to run press and get the high ST guys and use that approach. If you're running M2M/Zone and any offense besides fastbreak, you are NOT winning without elite talent. And lots of it. Period. There's no discussing that.

“Coaches may complain at times that press is too strong. But the reason is not followed up by "because I can only sign 9 players".

Except yeah, it very often is. That’s pretty much what cub was referencing earlier. This was a pretty common complaint coming out of 3.0 beta, in fact. And the fact that Chris is saying CS is still getting “hundreds” of complaints about press tells me not much has changed.

If you want to beat Kimball, Piman or Hawkfan (I’m in conferences with the latter 2, and often play Kimball in non conference in multiple worlds) you need to challenge them for recruits. Make them battle, sweat, take walkons, or senior transfers (Piman does that all the time, FYI). The answer is not to have the game deliver you a fail safe crutch that you can count on to (sometimes) make your team lots better, and anyway never makes your team worse.

And anyway, this isn’t really about great teams and how they interact with each other. There should be a place for a slowdown strategy, even teams built for it. But it should be along the lines of “I think my starters are better quality, so I’m going to lean on them and reduce the impact of my opponents bench advantage”. Like when that’s true, as may have been the case with Duke’s win over my MSU team, for example, that’s just good coaching. I really don’t have any problem with that - I would simply prefer that when Tex (or I, for that matter, I use slowdown at UConn and Minny too sometimes) presses that slowdown button, it also comes with a risk of some consequences, not *just* good stuff. Like short roster gameplay is a *valid choice*. Just don’t complain about uptempo press teams strength because of your choices.