Posted by trojan4309 on 4/7/2022 1:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/7/2022 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by trojan4309 on 4/7/2022 11:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/7/2022 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by trojan4309 on 4/7/2022 10:02:00 AM (view original):
When teams want to pull upsets in real life, they run slowdown. You limit possessions and hope the percentages work in your favor. You’re also reducing your risk of foul trouble with slowdown as well. There are many indirect affects of slowing the game down that make it optimal to pull an upset.

I don’t believe it directly affects shooting percentage, turnover rate, etc. instead, I think it merely allows for fewer possessions and subsequently slows down the rate of fatigue as well. I think you are confusing indirect factors as being direct and I strongly doubt they are direct.

It also seems shoe only finds fault with the engine when he loses. Losses happen. They even happen when you’re the better team. It doesn’t mean the engine is broken.

Lol. Another one not following along. It would be great if you read what I write, instead of responded to the things you think I mean. Thanks.

In real life, upsets happen in lots of different context, but always have concepts behind them that go beyond “limit possessions and hope for the best”. Some weak teams use slowdown, but lots of strong teams slow it down too - because when you have the better team, the percentages *definitely* work in your favor. In fact, it’s one way you know this was designed by a math/coder, rather than a basketball player. Running down the clock is more commonly seen in sports by teams who are very strong. If I know I can score against you 57% of the time, and you can only expect to score against me 45% of the time, why would I want more possessions for strange things to happen, like injuries, or foul issues, or a juiced 3-pt shooter?

On your second paragraph, if you had followed along, you’d know I’ve addressed this twice already in this thread. I suspect it’s direct, but I acknowledge not everyone does, and I don’t expect CS to disclose that info. But again, as you explicitly say in your follow up, the stamina issue means even if it’s only an indirect effect on stamina drain and subsequent fatigue, that’s a concrete performance factor, a primary consideration for gameplay, and a balance problem, since slowdown has no risk and uptempo is all risk.

And the last part is just ignorant. Everyone who has spent time in conference with me knows I lose a bit, and win a bit, but the things I hate about the engine I hate ALL THE TIME. Don’t project your own stuff on to me.

I’ve read every word of your ******** and moaning, despite how awful a read it truly is. I’ve also checked out all of your complaining that no one cares to here in your conference chats… across multiple worlds. Yet, I wouldn’t stoop down to call any of your points “ignorant.”

As far as the game side of this, I have no interest in discussing it any further with you as you have shown no ability to have a civil discussion. I’m sorry you got SO offended by me stating what is clear: that your complaints come right after one or more of your losses.

lolx2.

I don’t even know or care who you are, or what your alt ID might be, but I’m always flattered by my stalkers.

Anyway, if you actually did read what I write (you don’t) you would notice all the times I acknowledge to folks things like “yeah that was BS” or “I have no explanation for that” or “this engine is so bad” after THEIR losses (often to me). So basically, lol again. Especially since you basically agree with me, you just don’t like me and want me to care about it.

No, I don't like you. You are a very unlikeable person... as well as an incredibly immature one. I'm sorry you are so bitter, and I truly hope your life gets better (:

Where is my care emoji? Add this to the list of things that irritate me.

List of Top 5 things that irritate shoe3 in HD.

1. Lack of tempo balance
2. Unintelligent implementation of doubleteams
3. Game engine course correction or feedback (aka “oops you did too well in the first half, now your team will suck for the rest of the game, too bad”)
4. Injuries and the uselessness of durability (it doesn’t matter at all until it wrecks your season)
5. ***new addition*** Lack of a care emoji in the forums. The just doesn’t cut it.

Interestingly, for someone who “only complains when he loses”, you’d be hard pressed to find someone who complains less about losing recruiting battles or early entries, despite losing plenty of both. I suppose we all have our little irritants.

Over in Naismith, a D2 16-seed has reached the Elite 8 using slowdown.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Schedule.aspx?tid=1989

Reading some of these responses to Poopshoe are hilarious.

Thanks for replacing MikeT as the guy on the forum who always has to be a condescending d!ckhead to everyone, it's pretty fun!

Posted by Benis on 4/7/2022 2:32:00 PM (view original):
Reading some of these responses to Poopshoe are hilarious.

Thanks for replacing MikeT as the guy on the forum who always has to be a condescending d!ckhead to everyone, it's pretty fun!

Awww. (**missing care emoji**)

Just for the record, yeah. I get feisty (ie irritable) sometimes when people take the words I say, twist them around or use different ones altogether, and then present them back again as though I mean something different. Or when people repeatedly bring up issues in a thread that I’ve already discussed earlier, making me either cover it again (when people like Benis are already likely to make some kind of comment about word count pretty soon) or leave it and look like there’s just no answer for it now. So when I correct mlitney on my word choice, or tell them and trojan#### they’re not following along well because I’ve already covered the issues they’re bringing up, I’m not being outraged or uncivilized. But I can’t do anything about the way you choose to read it. Every community needs its villain, and if that’s me for you, I’m happy to play along.

Just fix tempo.

Posted by trojan4309 on 4/7/2022 11:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/7/2022 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by trojan4309 on 4/7/2022 10:02:00 AM (view original):
When teams want to pull upsets in real life, they run slowdown. You limit possessions and hope the percentages work in your favor. You’re also reducing your risk of foul trouble with slowdown as well. There are many indirect affects of slowing the game down that make it optimal to pull an upset.

I don’t believe it directly affects shooting percentage, turnover rate, etc. instead, I think it merely allows for fewer possessions and subsequently slows down the rate of fatigue as well. I think you are confusing indirect factors as being direct and I strongly doubt they are direct.

It also seems shoe only finds fault with the engine when he loses. Losses happen. They even happen when you’re the better team. It doesn’t mean the engine is broken.

Lol. Another one not following along. It would be great if you read what I write, instead of responded to the things you think I mean. Thanks.

In real life, upsets happen in lots of different context, but always have concepts behind them that go beyond “limit possessions and hope for the best”. Some weak teams use slowdown, but lots of strong teams slow it down too - because when you have the better team, the percentages *definitely* work in your favor. In fact, it’s one way you know this was designed by a math/coder, rather than a basketball player. Running down the clock is more commonly seen in sports by teams who are very strong. If I know I can score against you 57% of the time, and you can only expect to score against me 45% of the time, why would I want more possessions for strange things to happen, like injuries, or foul issues, or a juiced 3-pt shooter?

On your second paragraph, if you had followed along, you’d know I’ve addressed this twice already in this thread. I suspect it’s direct, but I acknowledge not everyone does, and I don’t expect CS to disclose that info. But again, as you explicitly say in your follow up, the stamina issue means even if it’s only an indirect effect on stamina drain and subsequent fatigue, that’s a concrete performance factor, a primary consideration for gameplay, and a balance problem, since slowdown has no risk and uptempo is all risk.

And the last part is just ignorant. Everyone who has spent time in conference with me knows I lose a bit, and win a bit, but the things I hate about the engine I hate ALL THE TIME. Don’t project your own stuff on to me.

I’ve read every word of your ******** and moaning, despite how awful a read it truly is. I’ve also checked out all of your complaining that no one cares to here in your conference chats… across multiple worlds. Yet, I wouldn’t stoop down to call any of your points “ignorant.”

As far as the game side of this, I have no interest in discussing it any further with you as you have shown no ability to have a civil discussion. I’m sorry you got SO offended by me stating what is clear: that your complaints come right after one or more of your losses.

Lolll

So funny watching people push poopshoes buttons so easily. Love it!

Posted by shoe3 on 4/7/2022 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Just for the record, yeah. I get feisty (ie irritable) sometimes when people take the words I say, twist them around or use different ones altogether, and then present them back again as though I mean something different. Or when people repeatedly bring up issues in a thread that I’ve already discussed earlier, making me either cover it again (when people like Benis are already likely to make some kind of comment about word count pretty soon) or leave it and look like there’s just no answer for it now. So when I correct mlitney on my word choice, or tell them and trojan#### they’re not following along well because I’ve already covered the issues they’re bringing up, I’m not being outraged or uncivilized. But I can’t do anything about the way you choose to read it. Every community needs its villain, and if that’s me for you, I’m happy to play along.

Just fix tempo.

I knew you'd respond with a version of "I've covered that already." I was simply stating how I viewed the matter, and if there is overlap, then so be it. Feel free to accept my challenge in Phelan. I promise you I won't use the slowdown cheat code.

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/7/2022 3:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/6/2022 9:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/6/2022 7:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/6/2022 2:23:00 PM (view original):
“There's soooo many human teams in D1 with 10 or less scholarship players. To me, it seems like "win button" is running a deep uptempo press team. With the right matchups, you don't even need a lot of talent to make a decent run in the NT.”

That’s kind of what I’m saying - folks choose to play a certain way, take walkons, run short rosters, then get run over by uptempo/press teams and complain it’s overpowered. But that’s a gameplay choice they’re making, and the answer to their problem is to adjust their gameplay, it’s not for the game to give them a crutch. But that’s what happened when press was neutered the first time years ago, which is why tempo is the mess it is now, why uptempo is all risk for 98% of teams, and slowdown is all reward for every team that can run it.

It's not a game play choice to lose multiple 74/26 rolls when leading, in the same session. And I don't think anybody with an 8 man roster complains that press is too powerful when they get beat. They know what they're up against going into that setting.

I'm generally on board with the concept of "fix your own approach rather than complaining about it" (in the standard areas that we hear about it, like..... I forgot to renew, or we should get more money for RS2 so if we fail RS1 at least we can recover a little bit, or we should get more scouting money when we run out, etc). But I don't think there's one single coach here that complains press is too strong because they couldn't sign a full roster of their own. Coaches may complain at times that press is too strong. But the reason is not followed up by "because I can only sign 9 players".

Short rosters now days is due to a combination of high D1 participation and lack of REAL D1 talent. Sure, a coach can decide to aim for lesser talent. But how many piman/kimball/hawkfan91-92 rosters do you see in D1 with 60 ATH/SPD guys? Not many. So to compete with those guys, you need some talent. And there's not enough to go around. If you do wanna go the lesser talent + full roster direction, you pretty much HAVE to run press and get the high ST guys and use that approach. If you're running M2M/Zone and any offense besides fastbreak, you are NOT winning without elite talent. And lots of it. Period. There's no discussing that.

“Coaches may complain at times that press is too strong. But the reason is not followed up by "because I can only sign 9 players".

Except yeah, it very often is. That’s pretty much what cub was referencing earlier. This was a pretty common complaint coming out of 3.0 beta, in fact. And the fact that Chris is saying CS is still getting “hundreds” of complaints about press tells me not much has changed.

If you want to beat Kimball, Piman or Hawkfan (I’m in conferences with the latter 2, and often play Kimball in non conference in multiple worlds) you need to challenge them for recruits. Make them battle, sweat, take walkons, or senior transfers (Piman does that all the time, FYI). The answer is not to have the game deliver you a fail safe crutch that you can count on to (sometimes) make your team lots better, and anyway never makes your team worse.

Like we all don't know this and do this already? I just picked a couple of hot coaches to make a point. And if we're battling the elite schools, guess what? We're signing elite players! Which is my original point. Gotta have em.

And your last comment to basketts, Haha!! What does it matter if it's win button, magic button, upset button, or button up your collar? YOU are the one bringing the concept here!

This thread is great, just read this one.

Guys I didn't say it was a "win" button, I called it magic upset button! Upset is totally different than win. Get it straight and stop putting words in my mouth!

I missed you MikeT.

Just the pride in his posts when he says “poopshoe” kind of makes the whole thread worth it.

I mean, I don't understand why all this complaining about slowdown is even a thing.

It is obvious. If you can cause less possessions in a game, each individual possession is worth more and there is statistically more variance.

If you flip a coin 10 times and compare it to 10,000 times (and do many sets of each), you will find more variance in the 10 sets than the 10,000 sets.

So, if your team is better, you want more possessions. If your team is out matched, you want less possessions. You stand a better statistical chance to win a lower possession game if you are the less talented team. This **** is not rocket science.

Posted by trojan4309 on 4/7/2022 3:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/7/2022 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Just for the record, yeah. I get feisty (ie irritable) sometimes when people take the words I say, twist them around or use different ones altogether, and then present them back again as though I mean something different. Or when people repeatedly bring up issues in a thread that I’ve already discussed earlier, making me either cover it again (when people like Benis are already likely to make some kind of comment about word count pretty soon) or leave it and look like there’s just no answer for it now. So when I correct mlitney on my word choice, or tell them and trojan#### they’re not following along well because I’ve already covered the issues they’re bringing up, I’m not being outraged or uncivilized. But I can’t do anything about the way you choose to read it. Every community needs its villain, and if that’s me for you, I’m happy to play along.

Just fix tempo.

I knew you'd respond with a version of "I've covered that already." I was simply stating how I viewed the matter, and if there is overlap, then so be it. Feel free to accept my challenge in Phelan. I promise you I won't use the slowdown cheat code.

I accept most challenges (from teams that won’t obviously hurt my RPI much) right away, so accepted this well before your comment here. And would have done if I had known you were also baseball4309 (now we know) because I truly don’t care about any of this personal stuff. Don’t worry about slowdown. Play it if it makes sense for you. I’ve never said anything about coaches who use it, and as I’ve said here, I use it myself (with my non-FB teams, of course) when it makes sense. My problem is not with coaches who use it, it’s with the imbalanced tempo choices offered to us. I don’t want predictable results, or no upsets; I want the upsets that occur to make basketball sense, so this feels like a basketball simulation. “Limit possessions and hope something good will have happened along the way” isn’t it.

Just like I don't understand the whining about losing a 75/25 battle.

If there is a 99/1 battle (you can't have those.. But if you could)... Eventually, a one will be rolled. I have played D&D type games for more than 40 years. Sometimes you roll a 20 on a D20.. Sometimes you roll a 1. Deal with it. That is, fix your expectations.

For a little extra context, here is something Chris said to me in the course of our dialog:

“Maybe the common ground is plans are too strong in either direction, and should be more neutral across the boards.”

And to that, I think he’s absolutely on the right track.

Again, what I’m asking for is that slowdown and uptempo have somewhat corollary risks to go along with the benefits, beyond whatever possession benefit one might want to press (which I maintain is minimal on the slowdown side, in terms of a drawback). The stamina drain that uptempo suffers makes basketball sense. The lack of any corollary effect on the slowdown side does not.

Posted by hughesjr on 4/7/2022 4:36:00 PM (view original):
Just like I don't understand the whining about losing a 75/25 battle.

If there is a 99/1 battle (you can't have those.. But if you could)... Eventually, a one will be rolled. I have played D&D type games for more than 40 years. Sometimes you roll a 20 on a D20.. Sometimes you roll a 1. Deal with it. That is, fix your expectations.

Yeah I’m glad you brought that up too, because this is actually a good analogy. There’s a reason we don’t have 99-1 recruiting battles. Or anything below 80-20 (which is actually closer to 65-35 in terms of effort credit, before stretched for the leader). Because upsets makes sense in sports, to a point, but there is a limit, past which you’re asking us to suspend disbelief. And at that point, it stops feeling like a sports simulation, and feels like some kind of casino game.