Posted by mlitney on 4/25/2022 10:53:00 AM (view original):
I hate dice rolls, but I've learned to push the anger down and hold it deep, deep within my soul. I'm also considering a job with the US Postal Service.

Ha! This one was funny

Posted by mlitney on 4/25/2022 10:13:00 AM (view original):
It's been my observation that the newer coaches who jump to D1 as quickly as possible are also the same coaches who don't have the patience to rebuild a D1 team. They generally spend a few seasons trying to battle for top recruits and then quit after 2-3 seasons. Some may go back down to D2/D3, and some may quit the game completely. Either way, I don't know if it's good for the long-term health of the game. The brutality of D1 recruiting probably leaves a bad taste for them. It's fine if a coach chooses to jump to D1 after a few seasons, but they should be aware that a legit D1 rebuild could take a year or more in real life. It takes time to build recruiting preferences like Wants Success and Long-Term Coach.

And I'm not trying to single anyone out or say that all new coaches struggle in D1. But it sure seems like the vast majority. It's harder to gain a real connection to this game if you hop around different jobs, going back and forth between D3, D2, and D1. Maybe this game isn't made for those types of people? I don't know. I've enjoyed the increased D1 population, but I don't think it was done in a healthy manner. And I won't pretend to have all the answers.

+1

I would be fine if coaches with N+ seasons of experience across HD had lower requirements for moving up to D1 than brand new coaches. Allowing new coaches to jump straight to bottom-tier D1 schools sounds like a great way to accelerate burnout/churn for all parties involved.

I think a lot of you are underestimating how much effect the high price has on how willing many coaches are to do things like take on long rebuilds. I agree, fundamentally, right now with the ~13$ base, 180 in D1 is stretching the upper limit. But the game as it exists could totally support more if it wasn’t so credit dependent for retention, ie if the base price wasn’t that high.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/25/2022 1:58:00 PM (view original):
I think a lot of you are underestimating how much effect the high price has on how willing many coaches are to do things like take on long rebuilds. I agree, fundamentally, right now with the ~13$ base, 180 in D1 is stretching the upper limit. But the game as it exists could totally support more if it wasn’t so credit dependent for retention, ie if the base price wasn’t that high.

There's a lot of truth there. If the base price was around $5, then I think new coaches would be more willing to take on a project and stick around. I also feel like younger folks just need some more instant gratification. This is PURE speculation on my part, but its a different generation than most of us here. They want to land the big recruits, make deep runs in the NT, etc. It's not exciting to sit around for months before you can make the postseason. And all the dead time at the end of the season is really grating. Most of us have spent years learning this game and working our way to the top. I just don't think that's feasible if the devs want to bring in a younger audience.

Let any coach start at D2 or D1 if they want. But if they want to start in D1, it needs to be at one of the bottom 5 conferences. Let them learn how everything works while being able to win conference games and have a legit shot at the postseason.

Make D3 free and get rid of D3 postseason credits. Put a season limit on it if you want, but I wouldn't see a problem with a ton of coaches playing the game that otherwise wouldn't. It exposes them to the other WIS games, events, and promotions.

Does that move the needle at all?

Posted by mlitney on 4/25/2022 2:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/25/2022 1:58:00 PM (view original):
I think a lot of you are underestimating how much effect the high price has on how willing many coaches are to do things like take on long rebuilds. I agree, fundamentally, right now with the ~13$ base, 180 in D1 is stretching the upper limit. But the game as it exists could totally support more if it wasn’t so credit dependent for retention, ie if the base price wasn’t that high.

There's a lot of truth there. If the base price was around $5, then I think new coaches would be more willing to take on a project and stick around. I also feel like younger folks just need some more instant gratification. This is PURE speculation on my part, but its a different generation than most of us here. They want to land the big recruits, make deep runs in the NT, etc. It's not exciting to sit around for months before you can make the postseason. And all the dead time at the end of the season is really grating. Most of us have spent years learning this game and working our way to the top. I just don't think that's feasible if the devs want to bring in a younger audience.

Let any coach start at D2 or D1 if they want. But if they want to start in D1, it needs to be at one of the bottom 5 conferences. Let them learn how everything works while being able to win conference games and have a legit shot at the postseason.

Make D3 free and get rid of D3 postseason credits. Put a season limit on it if you want, but I wouldn't see a problem with a ton of coaches playing the game that otherwise wouldn't. It exposes them to the other WIS games, events, and promotions.

Does that move the needle at all?

I totally agree about the high cost per season. If you're not making the tourney consistently and have a couple teams then you're racking up quite the bill.

But I've never been a fan of free D3. That just makes zero sense to me. Why would someone pay $13 per season for d2 when they could play for free at d3? D1 is at least unique enough that it could stand out but I think it'd wipe out d2.

Not to mention that WIS would make much LESS money. Why would they do that? I prefer a modifed tiered rewards approach that I proposed years ago

Edit: eff me, that post was 5 years ago. I've been here too long.

Yeah, that makes sense with D2. Why would anyone want to play D2 when they can play D3 for free. I like the tiered approach though.

Posted by mlitney on 4/25/2022 10:13:00 AM (view original):
It's been my observation that the newer coaches who jump to D1 as quickly as possible are also the same coaches who don't have the patience to rebuild a D1 team. They generally spend a few seasons trying to battle for top recruits and then quit after 2-3 seasons. Some may go back down to D2/D3, and some may quit the game completely. Either way, I don't know if it's good for the long-term health of the game. The brutality of D1 recruiting probably leaves a bad taste for them. It's fine if a coach chooses to jump to D1 after a few seasons, but they should be aware that a legit D1 rebuild could take a year or more in real life. It takes time to build recruiting preferences like Wants Success and Long-Term Coach.

And I'm not trying to single anyone out or say that all new coaches struggle in D1. But it sure seems like the vast majority. It's harder to gain a real connection to this game if you hop around different jobs, going back and forth between D3, D2, and D1. Maybe this game isn't made for those types of people? I don't know. I've enjoyed the increased D1 population, but I don't think it was done in a healthy manner. And I won't pretend to have all the answers.

this is fair. i kinda have a foot in both camps - it seems like its kinda really easy to move up to/in d1, from the standpoint of a new coach. but it seems too hard, from the standpoint of an experienced coach. i agree that d3/d2 are an important learning ground, and we need to send new coaches there to do just that. i just don't think it makes sense for a coach with a BCS team in some world to have to start over in d3 in another - i feel like a lot of folks want another team, but the prospect of burning 3 seasons and 40 bucks just to get to low d1 to start the building process, its just a lot of time/effort/money. that is where i'd really like to see like the ability to skip once you get far enough (maybe that means 5 NT appearances in d1, i don't know? something attainable - not a perk for the elite, if you will - something for the masses, just not actual newbies). not skip into competitive jobs - not into BCS openings - but bottom d1 schools that basically nobody wants, i feel like should be fair game.

So I’ve only played one season. Here are my comments on this

1) I discovered HD probably ten years ago. I had almost no disposable income at the time. I saw one season was $5. I could do that! But to then up the price to $10 or $12 or whatever- I couldn’t justify it. So I didn’t play. I remembered it a few times over the years. I’d come and check in. I had forgotten about it since I had more disposable income. I finally remembered and came to play. If it was cheaper, I would have been here ten years ago though.

2) The first season is rough. If you don’t accept that upfront, you’ll be miserable. I took over the worst team I could find so I didn’t beat myself up about it. If I had had a team that could compete in year one and I struggled, I might not have done a second season. I convinced myself I did well going from 2 wins to 5 wins. If I’d gone from 20 wins to 15 wins, that’s a much tougher sell. Not sure how many people are willing to go the route I did though.

3) I would have loved a 10-15 minute video walking me through what some of this stuff meant. A tour of my team and what I could do with it. Instead, I’m still learning some of the things I can do that weren’t clear initially to me. I get that there’s a learning curve but good night!

4) I’m not sure if I want to play D1 or not. Sounds brutal. If I got there, I’d go through a small conference team for many years, building that program. Might never win a national title that way, but I’d love the annual mid major program building.

I’m sure there is more. But I’ll stop there for now.

Posted by johnroberts on 4/25/2022 4:15:00 PM (view original):
So I’ve only played one season. Here are my comments on this

1) I discovered HD probably ten years ago. I had almost no disposable income at the time. I saw one season was $5. I could do that! But to then up the price to $10 or $12 or whatever- I couldn’t justify it. So I didn’t play. I remembered it a few times over the years. I’d come and check in. I had forgotten about it since I had more disposable income. I finally remembered and came to play. If it was cheaper, I would have been here ten years ago though.

2) The first season is rough. If you don’t accept that upfront, you’ll be miserable. I took over the worst team I could find so I didn’t beat myself up about it. If I had had a team that could compete in year one and I struggled, I might not have done a second season. I convinced myself I did well going from 2 wins to 5 wins. If I’d gone from 20 wins to 15 wins, that’s a much tougher sell. Not sure how many people are willing to go the route I did though.

3) I would have loved a 10-15 minute video walking me through what some of this stuff meant. A tour of my team and what I could do with it. Instead, I’m still learning some of the things I can do that weren’t clear initially to me. I get that there’s a learning curve but good night!

4) I’m not sure if I want to play D1 or not. Sounds brutal. If I got there, I’d go through a small conference team for many years, building that program. Might never win a national title that way, but I’d love the annual mid major program building.

I’m sure there is more. But I’ll stop there for now.

interesting thoughts! its nice to see a new user's perspective, really.

2) they really should make this clear up front and offer a 5-pack trial package that is like, 15 bucks. basically a combo of setting expectations, and lowering the trial cost. i forget whose idea this originally was, its come around too many times, so not my idea but i like it.

3) i agree! i think having resources for new users is important, but companies always lack this. even look at AAA titles (the 50 million dollar games and stuff), there is so often this layer of like, user content, that makes it work. i have to go on the internet and google for stuff constantly, no matter how 'platinum' a title is.

so i kinda think like, WIS should put a landing page together, that points users to HD forums and the discord. but i kinda think from there, to some extent, its on us. there are youtube videos and/or wikis and/or forums, for so many games, i almost consider a game unplayable if it does not have that kind of content, to assist with the ramp up (i tend to play big games where a hundred hours barely scratches the surface). even little kid games in crap like flash and whatever replaced it, will have wikis with couple dozen pages sometimes.

this isn't a huge game and there's not enough money to be made to 'sustain creators', like as full time jobs. and this game doesn't lend to streaming or game play videos (well, maybe i'm wrong? real life sports finds a way to make it work, like the games based on it, gambling and daily fantasy and regular fantasy and all that. maybe HD could work, somehow?). but WIS could offer incentives and stuff, and there's a lot of people who donate their time just to help out with these kinds of things. but what we end up with here is kind of like... massive block-of-text guides. which is far better than nothing. but an organized wiki, or some youtube content that covers a lot of stuff - it really goes far.

at one point, yatzr made a recruiting tool that a bunch of us enjoyed. he had a little donation page, i think i sent him a hundred bucks or something - more than the tool is worth to me, but he gave it away free to 100 people for every 1 who donated, probably. i think a handful of other people did the same. not enough to make it worth his time, but i'm sure it kinda like, helped encourage him forward? showed people cared, and appreciated? if people cared enough, we in the community do have the ability to contribute to creators, to incentivize it. its not like THAT much is required, like its not like 50 people can go do this. its a crap ton of work for a couple people and then some other people might contribute some, who knows?

side note - i think the discord was put in to help fill this niche, among others, and it is a good resource in a lot of ways. its just not very good for accumulating information over time. it has a nice page with links to other resources, but the non-threaded nature of the communications there, its just very hard to like, go search for the conversations on _______ and to actually find the robust ones. i think its more valuable as a help tool for people looking for near-real time help (within a day or so). and for that, its great! or at least, decent. definitely props to teemo and others who got that going! but i think for educational purposes, video series or wikis tend to be the best tools for those jobs, and second best is threaded forums like reddit or really the HD forums here.

4) d1 is a lot of fun and hopefully you don't let us scare you away!! a lot of people have successful d1 teams without putting crazy time and effort in, its not really intense like that. its just hard to be good at recruiting and really hard to be consistently good. but yeah, its a good time, for the most part!

I've been playing for a couple years now, mainly at the D3 level with several different teams. I love the game, love the interaction through discord and the forums. I think the game is in a great spot--yes, there are always things we'd like improved but overall, the game is great.

I would really like to give it a go at the D1 level, but I have zero interest in spending years at a low/middle D1 school just trying to build something. At D3, it takes months to build a title contender--that's plenty for a game like this and I can't imagine why I would want to spend much longer on a low D1 rebuild just for a chance at the NT. So for me, I find competing for championships at the D3 level much more interesting (maybe one of these days I'll win one...).

If there ever came a time where I could get hired by a high prestige D1 school (which I can't because my success is all at D3) or the "baseline prestige" was ever adjusted to allow smaller D1 schools to compete with the bigger D1 schools, then I would make that jump into D1. But I don't see either of those things changing anytime soon, so the appeal isn't there for me.

But back to the point of the post... the game is great! Especially at the D3 level.

Posted by CPA_ROD on 4/25/2022 6:14:00 PM (view original):
I've been playing for a couple years now, mainly at the D3 level with several different teams. I love the game, love the interaction through discord and the forums. I think the game is in a great spot--yes, there are always things we'd like improved but overall, the game is great.

I would really like to give it a go at the D1 level, but I have zero interest in spending years at a low/middle D1 school just trying to build something. At D3, it takes months to build a title contender--that's plenty for a game like this and I can't imagine why I would want to spend much longer on a low D1 rebuild just for a chance at the NT. So for me, I find competing for championships at the D3 level much more interesting (maybe one of these days I'll win one...).

If there ever came a time where I could get hired by a high prestige D1 school (which I can't because my success is all at D3) or the "baseline prestige" was ever adjusted to allow smaller D1 schools to compete with the bigger D1 schools, then I would make that jump into D1. But I don't see either of those things changing anytime soon, so the appeal isn't there for me.

But back to the point of the post... the game is great! Especially at the D3 level.

Your best bet is to keep an eye out for a decent spot in a good mid major conference in your worlds. The A10 in particular can play close to power conference level if enough of the right coaches are there; and the MWC and CUSA can very often get 4+ teams in, too. Get 5-8 humans in those conferences and if they all schedule well and don’t bomb recruiting, you can definitely be competitive. If nothing else, you’ll likely be able to put yourself in position for a power conference job quicker from there than you will from D3.

I just saw a career D3 coach go straight to a B- prestige school in the B10. With enough D3 success and a little hiring luck, you can skip the lower and middle tiers of D1.

I miss you Zorzii, come back.

"offer a 5-pack trial package that is like, 15 bucks"

For sure. Not even close. The 1 year $5 discount doesn't even let guys play with their own recruited players anymore! Had a coach yesterday sitemail me and tell me how frustrated he was he had to shell out $13 more to even get to see a player he recruited on the court... 5 years is definitely long enough for people to get hooked!

If you are running 5+ teams maybe the money adds up but for a new person with just 1 team is it really the money that keeps them from playing? A 10 pack for a $100 let's you run 2 teams for like 6 months. I would argue the delay in taking ownership of a new team and the long delays in season end to season start are more annoying.

If money is the issue I would think the 5 pack for $15 would get them in but they have to pay sooner or later. Not everyone gets enough credits to play for free. A little discount does make it nice though but I am still spending $200-$300 a year easy on 4 teams in HD and 1 in HBD.