RELIGION DISCUSSION Topic

"The real architect of chistrianity was Paul.

He gave the romans a religion completely disconnected to judaism".


There is certainly a different tone present in all of the Pauline epistles which seem to contradict, in some ways, the Gospel writers.
7/14/2022 11:57 PM (edited)

"The jews never rebelled because of rituals. It was of supreme importance to them.

And it would be abhorrent for any jew to wish grievous
harm to a fellow jew.
Again the new testament was written for romans
and not jews"


I am not really sure I understand the point/question of the first part. I was not aware anyone claimed the Jews ever rebelled over rituals.
Your last point is accurate to some degree. The “audience” being written to differs depending on which Gospel or which other NT book. There is at least one very obvious NT epistle written specifically for the Jews titled “Hebrews”.
7/15/2022 12:20 AM (edited)
"How would the romans accept Jesus if they were blamed as vicious murders of Jesus.
The Romans were never benevolent. That simply does not fit recorded history. Jesus was one of thousands of jews and maybe even some of them went the cross with the courage of innocent martyrs and the executions continued long after Jesus died".


To answer this question we will run into issues that you’ve openly railed against pretty harshly when it was mentioned by other posters.

I can only hope that I’ve demonstrated a sincere desire for open dialog and my comments are not taken out of context or defined as hate speech or the like. There is no malice in my heart as I explain.
It is my understanding and belief that, as “pure Christianity” spread in the very early years after the Ascension, Roman rulers were concerned.

It was spreading fairly quickly and the Romans (leaders, not the general populous) decided the only way to maintain control was to adopt and TAKE control of this new phenomenon.

They did exactly that and quickly perverted it into “religion” in the form of the Roman Catholic Church.
Here is where you will see a mingling of Roman mythology with actual Christian teachings. Some attribute this for the change from Sabbath day worship to Sunday worship, as the Romans were already engaged in worshipping their Sun God on Sunday. It allowed for a much smoother transition of power and control.
They maintained this power and control for 1200+ years without much credible resistance.
7/15/2022 12:26 AM (edited)
"I don’t believe in either bible. Never did since a young child. I saw the bible as stories to inspire and allegories and poetry and metaphorical writings.
Nothing else. Any historical events were exaggerated and part of mythology.
I became even more convinced when i was studying for my bar mitzvah portion.
The new testament never had a chance because it cannot be believed if one does not believe in the old testament - the bible".


Yes, this is a common belief held by many. There are actually several different tiers when it comes to any discussion regarding Christianity.
Tier 1) The discussion with the atheist.

Where the discussion revolves around evidence supporting the mere existence of a Higher power, or lack thereof.
Tier 2) The discussion with the modern day Deist mindset (my own, made up definition).

We can both agree there IS a higher power but the discussion revolves around if this Higher power has anything to do with the God of the Hebrew and/or Christian Bible.
Tier 3) The discussion with the skeptic (again my own definition purely for purposes of differentiating).

I think this might be where we fall, at least regarding this specific question, based on your statement quoted above.

The discussion revolves around if the Bible can be taken as legitimate and/or authoritative OR is it simply a book of fables and metaphors simply meant to help teach basic principles of living harmoniously with each other.
Tier 4) The discussion with the person who is a follower of an entirely different faith.
For example a Jew and a Christian trying to discuss which religion is “correct”.

This is typically the least fruitful discussion and by and large a waste of time that I will not engage in.

I believe this most accurately describes what we’re doing here for the majority of the discussion.

I chose to participate in this instance only because you appear to be sincere in your desire to open a dialog.

We can see that the vast majority of this entire thread is exactly as I describe when holding this Tier 4 discussion.

Not very fruitful in general and unlikely to result in the changing of the heart and/or mind by any of the participants
Tier 5) The discussion with a Christian of a different denomination.

For example a Catholic and a Mormon discussing the merits of their respective beliefs.

Similar to Tier 4, BUT if both parties come with a sincere desire to learn (and with open heart and mind, with the spirit of love toward one another and the truth) it CAN be very fruitful.

Both can learn from each other, although typically the result is very similar to Tier 4.
Tier 6) The discussion between folks of the same denomination. This might be considered simple “Bible study” by the participants.
7/15/2022 12:36 AM (edited)
"When people talk about going to hell for nonbelievers
it does not make me nervous but it angers me because most like a few here say it with a pernicious attitude".


Sure. They do a disservice to themselves by revealing a hard heart.

They remind me of sports fans in a way or rather they show no more reverence towards their supposed faith as a sport fan shows for his favorite team.

Like a proud Yankee fan who can boast three times the championships as the next most successful team.

Or the Alabama fan yelling “Roll Tide”.

These folks are just proud of themselves because they are convinced they’re on the “right team", and that’s good enough for them.

They aren’t very introspective and typically don’t actually study their Bible very often if ever.

They’ve chosen the right team and their work is done, with the exception of screaming “Roll Tide” to everyone who isn’t a Bama fan.

These are usually the most dangerous and historically the ones that have committed most of the atrocities perpetrated in the name of their “Christianity”.
7/15/2022 12:40 AM (edited)

"If there is a God I would never ascribe human characteristics or believe that possible.

And certainly God would not be literally talking to people and MOST of all God would never murder innocent babies and whole populations of a country or kill everybody in the whole world to start his failed experiment again.
I could never carry around what I consider a disrespectful belief about the nature of God".



This will be the most provocative answer of all. I will readily admit upfront that it is purely my own (years ago, acid induced) theory.
It may also be the least coherent as I’ve never before attempted to write any of this and have only ever discussed it in person.
It will hopefully at least be good for a laugh if nothing else.
Everyone who's ever thought I was batshit crazy, will have their suspicions confirmed now.

Imagine God as a scientist with the intelligence 1000 fold that of Einstein.
In this lab He is conducting many experiments simultaneously. This lab is fairly large, holding several tables all of which have independent experiments being conducted.
On one table there is a light source and several vials rotating around this light source.

The vials are placed near or far away from this light source and rotate at varying speeds depending on the needs of the particular experiment being conducted in each vial.
In the vial 3rd nearest to the light source He is creating life forms.

After some indeterminate time has passed,, the life forms have evolved and become very advanced (at least in their own minds).
These creatures have managed to create a way to launch themselves up and out of their test tube.

They are in awe of how vast the room is and can’t begin to imagine just how large it actually is.

They cannot fathom they are merely one experiment in one room of an even more vast building with several rooms on several floors.
This general concept about how small we may be in the entirety of the universe was captured fairly well in the MIB movie where the marble was shown to contain an entire galaxy and the marble was only one in a large bag full of similar marbles.
Now, going more in depth concerning the relationship between the Creator and His creation.

The book of Genesis describes the creation event in great detail.

According to this creation story mankind was created on the 6th day.
I put forth the notion that He is still in the process of “creating man”.
Ever taken a biology class where, as part of the curriculum, you breed some simple life form like fruit flies (what we used in my 9th grade class)?
You start with a few flies and breed them waiting for the mutation of say, red eyes (for example) to appear.

When those flies appear, you then separate them from the rest and begin anew where now all the offspring exhibit red eyes and now you’re looking for another, specific trait to appear. So on and so on.
So, with that in mind, imagine ancient man evolving for however long until the “perfect” physical specimen appears.

We’ll call him Adam and separate him from the rest of the population. With a little DNA manipulation we will give the offspring much greater intelligence and again let nature take it’s course.
After a millennium passes they’ve devolved in many ways and disregard your implicit instructions, with the exception of one man who still exhibits faith and tries to live accordingly.
We’ll call him Noah.

Noah exhibits the physical traits of Adam while also showing a commitment to faith in the Creator’s instructions. At this point we’ll empty the test tube of everything but Noah and his family.
Another millennia passes and again most have devolved except one we’ll call Abraham.

He has not only the physical traits of Adam, and the faith of Noah, but he has a faith unlike anything we’ve seen before.

We’ll test him to see just how strong and committed to his faith he really is.

He’s passed all previous tests, moving away from his family and living among strangers for example, but we’re going to REALLY test him now.

We'll command him to offer, as a sacrifice, his only legitimate son that he's literally waited 100 years to finally get.

Impressively he demonstrates that he not only has great faith, but he is willing to ACT on that faith in a manner never before seen.
We’ll separate him from the others again, and we’ll call him the father of My chosen race of folks called Jews and they will be My people and I will be their Lord. I will bless them in unimaginable ways.

At this point the physical portion of the creation is finished.
Of course over time most stray as usual but we’re now going to inject a form of Ourselves into one of the creatures we’ll call Mary.

The process is what we now call in vitro fertilization, and results in an enhanced creature, part man and part God.

This will begin the next and final stage of the creation, where we’ll focus on the Spiritual side of the creation to compliment their success in the physical aspect.
7/15/2022 1:06 AM (edited)
"Jesus had a small following of cowards and a betrayer. Even they did not recognize divinity until after his death. "

I cannot find the o.poster.. but this is nonsense. They were anything but cowards. Would YOU risk your life to follow Christ? Would YOU spread the Gospel if you knew it could cost you your life?? I kind of doubt it, but

They did, and they knew it
.
7/15/2022 5:30 AM
Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 6:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by lostnfound74 on 7/15/2022 5:30:00 AM (view original):
"Jesus had a small following of cowards and a betrayer. Even they did not recognize divinity until after his death. "

I cannot find the o.poster.. but this is nonsense. They were anything but cowards. Would YOU risk your life to follow Christ? Would YOU spread the Gospel if you knew it could cost you your life?? I kind of doubt it, but

They did, and they knew it
.
That post is by this thread's author, and supported by an 'intellect and scholar' who also claims to be able to discredit the Bible while fully supporting other non-God inspired works, all in the name of 'discussion'. They call some of us ignorant haters and beat their worldly chest from a position of assumed authority and correctness, never bothering for a moment to consider that THEY are the ones being laughed at and to be pittied. I'm ashamed of myself coming back to this hateful and hater thread. I do mourn the lost, but it's their choice in their smarty-pants slant to write their own ticket. Man is without excuse. Where did that come from ? Oh, the same book full of fables and contradictions and easily discredited, allegedly.
Your smugness discredits your claims.

If you took a moment to open your eyes you'd read that I did NOT support this post.

Why do you fear discussion?

I'm fairly confident you will find no example of me ever claiming to be any type of authority. Dino often speaks in this manner, but you won't get that from any of my posts.

We do know for sure (so there's no need to "consider") that you and likely plenty others are laughing.

Do you consider laughing at the lost an admirable trait? Do you suppose Jesus is slapping his knee joining you in that laughter?

Yes, you definitely SHOULD be ashamed of yourself. But not for trying to engage in a good faith discussion, but rather for the blatantly hypocritical and contradictory things you've "added" to the discussion.
7/15/2022 8:22 AM
Snarky "Christian" alert!

I grew up in the assembly of God denomination.
Have personally known many "Pastors".
Never met a single one that was snarky.

Been around and met literally 1000's of so-called (self-titled) "Christians".
I'd have to say the vast majority of them were "snarky" and hypocritical cretins largely hugely untrustworthy.
They use the term "Christian" as a shield. A weapon. A password.
It's definitely NOT a pathway, or a walk of life to them. It's a scam!
It's WHY they recognized Trump as their saviour!
Like minds and birds of a feather and all that!

IF you believe in the Bible as truth, then you should recall that on Earth, the present ruler is not Ussen, but rather the fallen Angel.
IF things are going your way on Earth (within the Country, etc) then you are walking with the wrong side!
Persecution SHOULD be your lot on Earth these days.
Not controlling the political discourse and winning elections!!
7/15/2022 9:42 AM
Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 8:52:00 AM (view original):
Yes, dino took the initiative and called you nice things. Maybe I took a leap in your acknowledgment and acceptance of such. You certainly didn't deny the claims.

Much of what you've offered so far is not discussion, but opinion and simply untruths. Did you not say :

Quote post by bruceleefan on 7/15/2022 12:08:00 AM: A good portion believe the Truth of Jesus was and still is hidden from the Jews. So that they will not, maybe even cannot accept Jesus. Some believe that once the “age of Gentiles” concludes, God will remove the scales from their eyes/hearts and they will come to Christ during that time.

Do you actually believe this ? If so, it feeds the appetite of those not yet willing to accept Christ and further arms them with a mistaken notion of see it's not my fault he's not looking for me anyway.

He's been searching for and available to all all along. There's much more. Let's start there.
Is it your contention that opinions have no place in discussion? I would be curious to read your definition of discussion if so.

Is it that only opinions you agree with are worthy to be considered as discussion? I am sincerely at a loss to understand what you mean here.

You quoted me, so obviously that is what I wrote.

I listed several, differing schools of thought held by various factions of folks calling themselves Christians. Have you never heard that school of thought before?

What I believe is there is no shortage of excuses from anyone wishing to deny Christ. Open and honest discussion cannot be feared because some may use a truth or some perversion of the truth as an excuse to deny Christ.

My relationship with Christ affords me the confidence to freely discuss anything. My faith is not tied to doctrine, so challenges to my beliefs are not a threat to my salvation. In fact, I welcome challenges (regardless of topic), as in my opinion it is a win/win for me.
Either my belief is wrong and I'm happy to be corrected and draw even closer to truth. Or my belief is correct and hopefully the discussion brought someone else closer to the truth.

If you dismiss the OT covenant with the Jews, how do you reconcile that with the ever faithful nature of God? I'm not saying you're wrong, I readily admit this is a difficult area of discussion, I just personally have a hard time dismissing His nature and blowing off those covenants so easily. Are you an adherent to the "Spiritual Israel" line of thought?
7/15/2022 9:54 AM (edited)
Posted by laramiebob on 7/15/2022 9:42:00 AM (view original):
Snarky "Christian" alert!

I grew up in the assembly of God denomination.
Have personally known many "Pastors".
Never met a single one that was snarky.

Been around and met literally 1000's of so-called (self-titled) "Christians".
I'd have to say the vast majority of them were "snarky" and hypocritical cretins largely hugely untrustworthy.
They use the term "Christian" as a shield. A weapon. A password.
It's definitely NOT a pathway, or a walk of life to them. It's a scam!
It's WHY they recognized Trump as their saviour!
Like minds and birds of a feather and all that!

IF you believe in the Bible as truth, then you should recall that on Earth, the present ruler is not Ussen, but rather the fallen Angel.
IF things are going your way on Earth (within the Country, etc) then you are walking with the wrong side!
Persecution SHOULD be your lot on Earth these days.
Not controlling the political discourse and winning elections!!
This is possibly the best post I've ever read from you. SO many truths in these few paragraphs, or rather I should simply say I very much agree with most of this (after all I am not the arbiter of what is or isn't truth am I).
7/15/2022 9:53 AM
Posted by Jetson21 on 7/14/2022 3:31:00 AM (view original):
Bruce - you are a scholar. Let me address some of your comments.
I know nothing about wearing a pin and perhaps that was in the old testament or not. I can hardly believe that anyone anywhere would have that lead to calling those Rabbis disgusting. It is extremely trivial to wear a pin. It is a statement about rationalize the start of christianity the Paul and Roman way.
The jewish laws and rituals continued to carry on without complaint and it is still true for orthodox jews who represent an extremely large number of jews who live today after extermination attempts by christian germans and Roman mass murders and crusades and pogroms and inquisitions. All of that was done by people considering themselves christian. They were not inspired to do good.

And the people of that era were decidedly superstitious. The Romans with their myths and rituals. They would not accept an amorphous deity.
They got a new Roman god with jewish roots which could be ignored and forgotten.

As for your comment about meekness again you are on the right track. First of all who really knows if Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth.
The jewish population were offended by his claims to being a messiah and any claims of some type of divinity and still are today. That a human cannot be worshiped as God or be God in some way violates one the core beliefs of Judaism.
The old testament God was mystery and not an imaginable visible being and certainly not to be compared or inside of a human.
This is absolutely crucial to your understanding.

As for denouncing him as a false messiah , it stems from the fact that he was not the definition of the messiah. The belief in a messiah was only about 150 years old before the time of Jesus and it was the hope for a strong and powerful and successful military leader. There were such false messiahs before jesus and after. One in fact who had a much higher following led an unsuccessful military campaign. There was a coin made with his image.

What irks me is the thought that the jewish people were obligated to recognize divinity in Jesus.
Jesus had a small following of cowards and a betrayer. Even they did not recognize divinity until after his death.
Surely followers of a man promising an afterlife and being divine would inspire greater loyalty and courage and devotion.
In my opinion Jesus was not more courageous then soldiers fighting a jungle war in vietnam or firefighters or policeman. They go what they do for the greater good and to protect lives and not for entrance into heaven.

And why would Jesus be frightened the night before if he knew he was going to heaven by his perfect knowledge.

I respect your beliefs but I disagree with having blind faith in every word and episode.

Jesus as someone who believed entirely in the old testament literally observed the laws and rituals.
He certainly did not criticize kashrut. He stressed love thy neighbor that preceded him in the old testament.

Jesus said he was there for only the jews so he was not preaching a religion meant for the rest of the world.

Much of the passages of his capture and execution is written to please the Romans who became the christians. It was they who would not accept Jesus if they also had to follow the laws of the old testament.
They could not at all change their diet to kosher and Paul told them they did not have to. Who can imagine them wearing a talis and yamulka or not working on the sabbath or speaking hebrew etc.

The real architect of chistrianity was Paul.
He gave the romans a religion completely disconnected to judaism.

The jews never rebelled because of rituals. It was of supreme importance to them.

And it would be abhorrent for any jew to wish grievous
harm to a fellow jew.
Again the new testament was written for romans
and not jews.

How would the romans accept Jesus if they were blamed as vicious murders of Jesus.
The Romans were never benevolent. That simply does not fit recorded history. Jesus was one of thousands of jews and maybe even some of them went the cross with the courage of innocent martyrs and the executions continued long after Jesus died.

I don’t believe in either bible. Never did since a young child. I saw the bible as stories to inspire and allegories and poetry and metaphorical writings.
Nothing else. Any historical events were exaggerated and part of mythology.

I became even more convinced when i was studying for my bar mitzvah portion.

The new testament never had a chance because it cannot be believed if one does not believe in the old testament - the bible.

When people talk about going to hell for nonbelievers
it does not make me nervous but it angers me because most like a few here say it with a pernicious attitude.

If there is a God I would never ascribe human characteristics or believe that possible.
And certainly God would not be literally talking to people and MOST of all God would never murder innocent babies and whole populations of a country or kill everybody in the whole world to start his failed experiment again.

I could never carry around what I consider a disrespectful belief about the nature of God.
I agree with the above post. IMO as evidenced by the constant references to being lost etc -
The 2 most important messages people on the fundamentalist side take from their bible in order of importance to them are:

1. You can’t get into heaven and probably go to hell if you do not accept Jesus as your savior.
2. To a much lesser extent - Love thy neighbor as yourself which word for word originated in the Jewish Bible.

IMO - the first belief has done so much grievous harm to world and hundreds of millions of people that the damage caused by belief in that pronouncement has outweighed - by a lot - belief in the second.

BTW - I make no comment about whether Jesus uttered the famous quote but I can very easily interpret the quote in a way that actually would present Jesus as a hope for believers and non believers equally and how much better could that be.

Notice that I always couch my statements as IMO.
Even though I believe what I say with 100% certainty
I still will be respectful to those who think there is no room for critical discussion.

IMO - true religion is faith which only comes from investigation and working through possible doubt.
People with blind belief IMO are not what I call faithful.
7/15/2022 10:20 AM (edited)
Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 10:36:00 AM (view original):
Posted by laramiebob on 7/15/2022 9:42:00 AM (view original):
Snarky "Christian" alert!

I grew up in the assembly of God denomination.
Have personally known many "Pastors".
Never met a single one that was snarky.

Been around and met literally 1000's of so-called (self-titled) "Christians".
I'd have to say the vast majority of them were "snarky" and hypocritical cretins largely hugely untrustworthy.
They use the term "Christian" as a shield. A weapon. A password.
It's definitely NOT a pathway, or a walk of life to them. It's a scam!
It's WHY they recognized Trump as their saviour!
Like minds and birds of a feather and all that!

IF you believe in the Bible as truth, then you should recall that on Earth, the present ruler is not Ussen, but rather the fallen Angel.
IF things are going your way on Earth (within the Country, etc) then you are walking with the wrong side!
Persecution SHOULD be your lot on Earth these days.
Not controlling the political discourse and winning elections!!
Not bad at all, Bob. To this day in these parts I've not said a thing either way about Trump or either political 'side'. So, in absentia will not taken offense to maybe being pointed at in the first half of your post.

The second half, however, I couldn't agree with more. Things do suck down here, as perhaps they should. Despite that and all the venomous opposition, I'm simply trying to do my part to continue to fight the good fight.
why not take a side against Trump. Maybe failure to do so is dereliction of faith to not recognize his evil and demotion torch to democracy.

I certainly would not boast about sitting on the sidelines.

And don’t respond with one of your arrogant ***** anger post because I dare to have an opinion.
7/15/2022 10:41 AM
Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 10:57:00 AM (view original):
To me it apples/oranges. To me my faith in Christ has nothing to do before or after Christ in my life or before or after Trump came along, so I don't engage it. You would deny me that opinion; to fight for Christ for Christ's sake regardless of the surrounding chaff ?
There are certain things where taking a moral stand is imperative and this is one of the biggest this country has ever faced.
7/15/2022 11:06 AM
Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 11:06:00 AM (view original):
bruceleefan, you didn't answer my question which is typical of some in these parts that passes for deflection. Do you believe as some Jews do (who also believe in so much more that's incorrect) that groups are intentionally blinded by our sovereign Savior to his luv for them, or, and I'm trying to throw you a bone here as compromise to you seemingly walking it back it your follow-up, that it's an excuse used by some to not come to a saving knowledge of his grace, in some cases delayed indefinitely by them and too late ?
I have never come to a conclusion on this issue concerning the Jewish people and their unique relationship with Yahweh.

I said clearly that I find it to be a difficult topic.

Yes, I absolutely believe that some folks have been convicted by the Holy Spirit, but would rather keep running from His calling. Yes, they will latch onto anything they can to help convince themselves they have "good reason", when in fact they are simply unwilling to surrender to the truth the Holy Spirit has shown them.

I sincerely wish you could take a step back and see how self-righteous and condescending your posts read. If your goal is reaching lost souls, you'll never be successful talking down to them, declaring yourself the ultimate arbiter of truth, and telling them just how wrong and stupid they are.

It is probably the single biggest turn-off to non-believers, and of course you'll excuse it and instead blame them for denying Christ probably even snickering the whole time.

The FIRST step to bringing someone to Christ is demonstrating a sincere desire to love them WHERE THEY ARE. This is sorely missing in the posts you've contributed to this thread.

Please don't bother throwing me any bones. I can defend my position adeptly and have no problem admitting when I am wrong.
7/15/2022 11:32 AM (edited)
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