Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 9:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bruceleefan on 7/15/2022 9:35:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 9:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bruceleefan on 7/15/2022 8:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 8:15:00 PM (view original):
Romans and Psalms and elsewhere tie together a couple things I've said here multiple times. Man is without excuse, and, creation declares the glory of God.
It was St Thérèse of Lisieux who said: "I was between six and seven when I saw the sea for the first time. I could not turn away my eyes: its majesty, the roaring of the waves, the whole vast spectacle impressed me deeply and spoke to my soul of God's power and greatness."
It needn't be limited to kids on a deserted island either. I believe if a woman in an African village isolated from modern civilization talks a walk one day and looks out from the sea cliff at nature's wonderment, crashing waves, dolphins doing mid-air acrobatics, it's dusk out so she can see more stars than she knows any number fathomable to count, and in that moment declares surely there's something bigger than me responsible for all this. I believe that's enough.
She'd never heard the gospel, much less Jesus' name or the story of his father sending him for her. But I believe it's enough that she knew and acknowledged 'something' bigger than herself. You've offered it before in a different example; God meets those whose hearts he knows will respond where they're at. Maybe a holy spirit intervention is appropriate for some times without that person even being aware beyond a realization that something is already in play.
Which to me means even moreso whoa to those who've been presented the gospel and still rebel out of pride and hardheadedness. And that was me for the longest before I too knew, glad to still have a breath remaining to do so. There's still time but don't count on it.
That's a fantastic answer that I honestly didn't expect from the few other posts of yours I've read.
Continuing this train of thought, how far are you willing to take it?
A Muslim who faithfully adheres to the teachings of the Qaran they were raised to believe? Acknowledging the presence of that Holy Spirit and majesty of the Creator but wrongly attributing it to Allah? Are they damned because they mistakenly identified their Savior as Allah?
Yeah these get tougher and I may have to take a public pass for now. There's potential for many what if rabbit trails. Was this devout Muslim ever presented with Christ and rejected him ? There's underground Christianity all across the globe in regions with otherwise different belief systems. I do know that God already knows the hearts of those who will turn to Him. Is it fair that this Muslim who might be a nice guy might be damned ? Is it fair that my dad who thought he was a Christian going to heaven because he was music director at an assembly of Unity but for decades and literally with his dying breath rejected Christ and who's the greatest earthly man I've ever known but he and I will be spending eternity apart ?
There's no reason to add what ifs to my scenario.
It's very straightforward.
If you insist I add more detail, I can do that.
This person was a woman raised in the Muslim country of Afghanistan and she was never allowed to go anywhere without her Male family members.
As such, she was never presented with an opportunity to meet any "Underground Christians".
Yeah I told you these get tougher and tougher. For the more pure of heart with some understanding of a 'something', I could say I hope there's wiggle room for some saving grace. I could ask someone but I honestly don't know at the moment. I see where you're going and it's fair. But I'd also ask fairness in return that at some point there's always an answer that doesn't please everyone. Jesus couldn't make it happen, so why would I be any different or better. You may have already interpreted from earlier posts that my typical harvest field is those already in rebellion and I'm better versed in peeling away those layers. For those whose unawares appearance may suggest a better outcome, I can't provide a 100 answer at this time.
That's a fair and honest response.
It is appreciated and yes it does get tougher and tougher.
BTW, I'm not looking for an answer that pleases everyone. I'm simply hoping that these tougher questions might lead to a more gentle spirit when dealing with those who believe differently.
To maybe look at it from their perspective.
If one is brought up Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. the story of the Gospel is absurd.
The likelihood of them accepting it is even more greatly diminished when they see the actions of some who profess to be Christians.
Catholic priests (and more recently several Southern Baptist leaders) and their wanton pedophilia, the Nazis using the Bible to justify the holocaust, TV evangelists stealing the life savings of elderly widows, etc.
I think a much more effective approach is to recognize that many have legitimate reasons to reject Christianity which have nothing to do with pride, arrogance, or the desire to satisfy the flesh.
When we are quick to assume the reason they reject we only succeed at alienating further.
7/15/2022 10:41 PM (edited)