RELIGION DISCUSSION Topic

Posted by Mwett on 7/16/2022 9:12:00 PM (view original):
Let's go back to the Bob, and then YOU, example. Bob doesn't trouble me. If we were cubemates at the office we might do happy hour shots together at the 5:00 whistle. There's plenty of folks I brush shoulders with daily who aren't Jesus lovers who I don't target for damnation. But then they reveal THEIR anti takes. Not just quiet about it, not just an honest hey I was wondering about this, but a full-blown what you think sux cuz I've decided it's impossible.

And you already think you have all the answers. Maybe you know more than me. But we're on display, you and me. Christians are always being watched. If I give an answer that there might be multiple possible answers or someone thinks I'm wrong and/or there's is the better answer, not only do I not need your cross-examination but neither do we need the accompanying fingerpointing and snickers. Bad look I heard somewhere.
Dude.

Christians cannot look any worse than they already do. So many denominations who can't agree on so many issues. It is already absurd to many, and for good reason.

If someone's attitude is "what you think sux cuz I've decided it's impossible", then it's likely because they've only met folks who've dismissed their honest objections.

I've known dahs to be one of the most well reasoned and rational posters in all of these forums. He's been on this site maybe even longer than me. He never posts in threads he isn't knowledgeable about and asks well articulated questions. Your answer to him was laughable.

I've NEVER claimed to know it all.
In fact I've said often that I am no expert.
There are TONS of things I do not understand.
I willingly admit so when faced with such a question.

Having your faith challenged is a GOOD exercise.

It's a win/win.

You will either have your own misunderstandings cleared up or you'll grow even more competent defending your position.

You seem to be sincere and I believe you when you say you work in the harvest fields. So you KNOW, your salvation is NOT tied to an ability to be right all the time.

Don't be afraid to be wrong from time to time. It doesn't diminish your works.
7/16/2022 9:43 PM
Posted by laramiebob on 7/16/2022 9:18:00 PM (view original):
FTR. In Vitro fertilization is a process used by couples who are having some physical difficulty conceiving NOT copulating.

It's a VERY difficult procedure for the woman to go thru.
I seriously DOUBT it is used without medical NEED.
Thus, it would NOT be used when the woman is a virgin.

But nice try using apples to an orange.

Simple question (for any or all here).

Is every word in The Bible to be defended as TRUTH ("Gospel truth" if you will).........every parable, every story, every WORD is Historical Fact, a TRUE representation...........every word FACT............ Is it??

And I'm not attempting to condemn it as a whole here. Not "throwing out the Baby with..." at all.
But you will NEVER convince me (or a whole lot of other folks) that methusalah lived to be 969 years NOR that Abraham was conceiving at 100.
It's BS!!!
Bob, I don't get the apples to oranges thing.

You said a virgin birth was an impossibility.
I clearly showed that it isn't.

Your argument is that WE wouldnt because it isn't medically NECESSARY??
What does that matter?

The point isn’t why or when we do it.
The point is simply that it IS POSSIBLE.

Do you deny that we COULD impregnate a virgin this very day if we so choose?
7/16/2022 9:53 PM
1 Peter 3:15 (ESV)
but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.

2 Corinthians 10:5 (ESV)
We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.

Philippians 1:7 (ESV)
It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.

Philippians 1:15-16 (ESV)
Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.

Titus 1:9 (ESV)
He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

I fully acknowledge this isn't everybody's calling, and one may be a more useful tool in several other ways, but we should at least be able to acknowledge that with some people God uses trials; in others it is an emotional experience; in others it is through reason.

We can't fault a person who demands reason. They're no better or worse than those who are reached in other ways.
7/16/2022 10:23 PM (edited)
Posted by Mwett on 7/16/2022 9:58:00 PM (view original):
I've done cold witnessing in shelters and homeless tent cities. And been spit on. Don't talk to me about growing my convictions or afraid of being wrong when being right already comes with collateral damage.

Can you even begin to understand where this rough edge comes from and comes with the territory ? This here is child's play.
Sure I can understand EXACTLY.

You're a better man than me because I won't bother with shelters anymore. I've seen many homeless refuse a warm bed and choose a bottle on the street instead.

I've had beggars who claimed they wanted money for food curse me and literally throw the food I had bought for them back in my face, because they REALLY wanted $ for drugs or alcohol.

It's full on hypocrisy from me because I feel the same way towards them as you do about these forum posters.

Please point me to the Biblical verse which instructs us to make this judgement and declare which souls are worth our time.


Here is my own quote which comes back to reveal the log in my own eye, while I was worrying about the speck in yours.

We all have different gifts.
7/16/2022 10:31 PM (edited)
Bob, here are some examples of folks creating children late in life.

Erramatti Mangayamma at age 74 gave birth to twins in India last week after becoming pregnant through IVF, making her the oldest person ever to give birth, according to her doctors.

Maria del Carmen Bousada de Lara is the oldest verified mother; she was aged 66 years 358 days when she gave birth to twins.

The oldest ever man to father a child was reportedly Les Colley (1898 - 1998, Australia), who had his ninth child a son named Oswald to his third wife at the age of 92 years 10 months.

Ramjit Raghav is reportedly the oldest father in the world. In 2012, Raghav fathered his second son at the age of 96.
7/16/2022 10:53 PM
Just som more ramblings...

Earlier in the thread I mentioned how I came to truly believe there is something different concerning the Jewish people.

I find it difficult to explain the remarkable amount of hatred and suffering inflicted on this group of folks for thousands of years.

In my opinion it is a supernatural hatred that comes from Satan himself. He full well knows THEY belong to God and it ****** him off to no end. I cannot fully comprehend the unique relationship they have with the Father.

I cannot reconcile the seemingly contradictory facts of:
A) John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me".
B) The many covenants God made with Israel. For He cannot break His own covenants. That is not in His nature.

The only way these can be true simultaneously and in harmony with one another is if Jews are special to the Lord.

Only a small portion of examples follows. Note these are only the ones coming from the book of Isaiah and most are referring to end times:

From chapter 43 - To Israel the Lord says, I am your God; I will gather your descendants; beside me there is no Savior; you are my witnesses.

chapter 44 - The Lord’s Spirit will be poured out on the descendants of Israel—Idols of wood are as fuel for a fire—The Lord will gather, bless, and redeem Israel and rebuild Jerusalem.

chapter 51 - In the last days, the Lord will comfort Zion and gather Israel—The redeemed will come to Zion amid great joy.

chapter 52 - In the last days, Zion will return, and Israel will be redeemed—The Messiah will deal prudently and be exalted.

chapter 54 - In the last days, Zion and her stakes will be established, and Israel will be gathered in mercy and tenderness—Israel will triumph.

chapter 55 - Come and drink; salvation is free—The Lord will make an everlasting covenant with Israel—Seek the Lord while He is near.

chapter 56 - All who keep the commandments will be exalted—Other people will join Israel—The Lord will gather others to the house of Israel.

It is clear that God STILL has plans for Israel.

Even more interesting are the many uses of a marriage analogy between God and Israel.
In this same manner the NT teaches us that the Church is the Bride of Christ.

Jeremiah 31:32
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

Isaiah 54:5
“For your husband is your Maker,
Whose name is the Lord of hosts;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel,
Who is called the God of all the earth.

Hosea 2:7
“She will pursue her lovers, but she will not overtake them;
And she will seek them, but will not find them.
Then she will say, ‘I will go back to my first husband,
For it was better for me then than now!’

Ezekiel 16:8-14
“Then I passed by you and saw you, and behold, you were at the time for love; so I spread My skirt over you and covered your nakedness. I also swore to you and entered into a covenant with you so that you became Mine,” declares the Lord God. “Then I bathed you with water, washed off your blood from you and anointed you with oil. I also clothed you with embroidered cloth and put sandals of porpoise skin on your feet; and I wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk.
Joel 1:8
Wail like a virgin girded with sackcloth
For the bridegroom of her youth.

Again it's clear, the Lord loves Israel as his wife.
I don't think it's a coincidence and to me at least, it is beautiful and harmonious.

Israel is the bride of the Father
The Church is the bride of the Son.

Some will scoff. Some will call it blasphemous, but I believe this concept is critical to understanding so many other things.

This love of Israel, so pure and beautiful is the very reason the lord of THIS world hates Jews so very much and visits as much calamity on them as he can muster.
7/17/2022 1:05 AM (edited)
I also find it touching that Dino said to me (paraphrasing) "we are taught that we are called chosen because WE chose Yahweh, and not the other way around. This is an important distinction"

Indeed it is Dino. The Lord waited a long time for a people to choose Him, and that's why He loves you so much.
7/17/2022 1:09 AM
Before I go any further, please let me take a moment to clarify.
When I say this or that religion, I am talking about leaders.
I know there are devout, good intentioned followers in every denomination and faith.
Further I do not contend that EVERY leader was bad.
There were lots of leaders whose hearts and intentions were/are pure.


So, in the same way I feel that this supernatural hatred of the Jews reinforces the notion that they are indeed the Chosen, I feel that the trouble in the church also demonstrates that same kind of animosity from the fallen one.

If we look throughout the history of the church we can see example after example of Satan doing all he can to derail it.

Even from the very beginning the church was perverted by the Romans. Truths twisted and lies told. Ungodly men put in charge and touted as vessels of God.

Have you ever read the historical accounts of the Popes? My goodness they were some evil evil men.
By the time of Martin Luther they had perverted the NT maybe even more so than the Jewish leaders during Jesus's time had perverted the OT.

In every single instance of some new exciting revelation from God, there's Satan immediately cutting it's effectiveness in half or worse.

There may be others I've missed but I'll point to the Protestant reformation as the 2nd example.

By this time, the Roman Catholic Church had become really awful. They had invented a concept called purgatory where souls were held in limbo if they had died with some unconfessed sin(s).

They would literally charge folks money in order to get them out of purgatory, so their souls could pass over into Heaven.

"Oh dang! Grandma died last week and she hadn't been to confession in over 8 weeks? Ouch. That's gonna run you about $300".

Remember that before the invention of the printing press only priests had easy access to the Bible.

It's no coincidence that the printing press came around 1440 and just 75 years later a 34 year old Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to that door.

Additionally with the fall of Constantinople in the 1450s, Western Europe had much more access to original Greek and Hebrew texts which had been kept by the Eastern empire.

The combination of these two events (printing press and access to original manuscripts) allowed for more accurate translation in many different languages as well as quicker dissemination of these newer translations.

While the Protestant reformation was certainly a pivotal and great thing for Christianity in general, again we see Satan right there to diminish this success greatly.

Now at roughly the same time Martin Luther was nailing his 95 theses there were others who were having similar Revelations revealed to them.

One in particular was Huldrych Zwingli. He and Martin Luther were in agreement about SO MUCH. They could have come together and the Reformation would have had much more impact much more quickly. But, instead they were essentially enemies.

There were several, what you and I would consider minor differences of opinion, but the one that REALLY ensured they would never partner was the interpretation of the Eucharist. One believed that when the priest prayed over the Eucharist it literally transformed into the body of Christ, while the other said no, it's only symbolically the body of Christ.

Hmmm? How sad.

Of course one of the Catholic Churches biggest arguments against translating the Bible into the common tongue was that the lay person wasn't equipped to read and understand it for themselves. Even those with a pure motive could see this resulting in chaos. They weren't wrong.

For all the good that came along with the Reformation, the chaos afforded the Catholic church a great opportunity to belittle the new movement and therefore retain much of the power it should have rightly lost.

Throughout the next several centuries we would see other examples where new revelations of truth would be turned into even more chaos and infighting rather than bringing greater edification.

Not only did Satan hinder every opportunity for greater edification but he was/is still able to feed upon the wickedness of man's sinful nature and twist bits of truth into depraved "reasons" for supposedly devout men to commit atrocities upon one another.

Nowhere else do we see this to such an exaggerated degree, because Satan knows it is true and will ultimately result in his demise.
7/17/2022 2:34 AM
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Posted by lostnfound74 on 7/17/2022 5:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bruceleefan on 7/17/2022 1:09:00 AM (view original):
I also find it touching that Dino said to me (paraphrasing) "we are taught that we are called chosen because WE chose Yahweh, and not the other way around. This is an important distinction"

Indeed it is Dino. The Lord waited a long time for a people to choose Him, and that's why He loves you so much.
Very well said. I need to ask you what program are you using that you can copy paste to here? I have open Bible, but it won't always paste .. It might be called online Bible, I have had it for ages
I have no program I paste from the web.
7/17/2022 7:59 AM
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