Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 9:55:00 PM (view original):
Also, in general, starting a thread about whether or not old players are fairly rated versus newer players while openly stating you have never heard of players like Karl Anthony Towns and Joel Embiid, two of the most famous modern players, illustrates that you have only educated yourself on one side of the argument. Which I mean, you are entitled to, but it is going to open you up to a flame war. I'd say this community is generally far more educated about basketball than most online communities and there are more effective ways to start a discussion that the dictatorial style you started with there. I think give people here the benefit of the doubt before accusing them of not knowing their ****.

I can speak from experience because I ruffle feathers here all the time with my direct, emotionless approach. Pretty sure copernicus wanted to send me hate mail when I gave him my Bob Cousy takes.

berkelon is a good example of someone very new to this site who everyone loves... because he showed up, participated, exhibited some wit and asked a lot of questions. Curiosity will buy you a lot of good will.

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 10:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 8/4/2022 10:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 9:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 8/4/2022 8:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 6:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by thomcat on 8/4/2022 11:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 8/4/2022 11:10:00 AM (view original):
it's funny that the veteran dude who sm'd you never stepped forward... or is it?

In a recent league someone (not me) did post a note with a similar sentiment, so there is no reason to believe it is not legit. Neither is the post consistent with his style, of which we have a large sample. As over the top Savoy may be, I don't think there is any evidence he is not a straight shooter.

Lots of shots, though.

I got no reason to consider the dude a liar myself. I thought the sentiment was misplaced though. This community is super welcoming to new guys. Savoybg is a maniac and came out guns blazing on topics he knew nothing about, instead of being curious. However I believe he has good intentions even if he is a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows. I’d like him to find his feet because this community can always used more engaged individuals.

Hey, the first thing I said was that steals don't get you extra possessions, and they don't. That topic I know about. That has nothing to do with this sim, it's just a fact of basketball. Team A wins the tip and has the ball to start the game and Team B steals the ball. It's not an extra possession, it's just a possession that comes faster than it would have come because you ended the opponent's possession suddenly and now each team has had one possession. The only way to gain an extra possession on your opponent is an offensive rebound (other than fluke things like having the ball and getting tied up for a jump and then winning the tip).

A steal ends the opponent's possession without him getting a shot or getting to the line, AND you get the ball. So it's better than a blocked shot. But it DOES NOT get you an extra possession which is what ash claimed and why I responded. I just wanted to straight out ash's misconception on steals being part of the possession battle.

I think with regards to the SIM, it's all semantics. Is an OREB% an extra possession or did it extend a possession? Is a steal a shortening of a possession or a gained possession because the opponent wasted it? It was a stupid argument that had nothing to do with how the sim worked and I was annoyed by the breath wasted on it. No one was right and it clogged up a thread full of generally useful information that has helped a lot of people.

Everyone would benefit from moving on and having more substantive discussions about how things work.

An offensive rebound is an extra possession because.....

....The rules of basketball say that when the shot leaves the shooter's hand neither team now has team possession for the purposes of fouls and other things. That's why a foul on a rebound "is a loose ball foul." Neither team has team possession, so it's not an offensive or a defensive foul. A moving screen is an offensive foul because the offense still has team possession. Of course the 24 second clock does not reset on a ball that doesn't hit the rim, but that has no bearing on this part of it. When a player gets the ball on an air ball, he is credited with a rebound, so an air ball is a FGA. It just doesn't get you a new 24 because they want to prevent a team from trying to game the system with an "air ball" that is purposely thrown to a teammate to get a new 24. Any time there's a FGA, foul shots, or a turnover, a possession has ended.

A team doesn't "gain a possession" with a steal. They merely start the possession they are going to get anyway sooner. You can only gain a possession when you have 2 consecutive possessions. In can happen in high school ball when a technical is called as a shot is made, or during foul shots, because in high school all technical fouls result in a loss of possession along with the 2 shots. But that's not the NBA rule. On a technical in the NBA, after the one shot, the ball goes back to where it was at the point of interruption.

You are really dying on a hill that has nothing to do with what anyone else on this site is talking about. You are talking about some referee **** and everyone else is talking about the rules of a simulation engine. It's non-value added conversation.

I wouldn't go to a ref's forum and talk about the nuance of djikstra's algorithm. You are focusing on some semantic piece of the argument and missing the forest for the trees.

I'm trying to be an ally for you here and give you a little support. Please don't be so thickheaded as to burn the forest down.

Posted by savoybg on 8/4/2022 10:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 10:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 8/4/2022 10:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 9:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 8/4/2022 8:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 6:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by thomcat on 8/4/2022 11:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 8/4/2022 11:10:00 AM (view original):
it's funny that the veteran dude who sm'd you never stepped forward... or is it?

In a recent league someone (not me) did post a note with a similar sentiment, so there is no reason to believe it is not legit. Neither is the post consistent with his style, of which we have a large sample. As over the top Savoy may be, I don't think there is any evidence he is not a straight shooter.

Lots of shots, though.

I got no reason to consider the dude a liar myself. I thought the sentiment was misplaced though. This community is super welcoming to new guys. Savoybg is a maniac and came out guns blazing on topics he knew nothing about, instead of being curious. However I believe he has good intentions even if he is a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows. I’d like him to find his feet because this community can always used more engaged individuals.

Hey, the first thing I said was that steals don't get you extra possessions, and they don't. That topic I know about. That has nothing to do with this sim, it's just a fact of basketball. Team A wins the tip and has the ball to start the game and Team B steals the ball. It's not an extra possession, it's just a possession that comes faster than it would have come because you ended the opponent's possession suddenly and now each team has had one possession. The only way to gain an extra possession on your opponent is an offensive rebound (other than fluke things like having the ball and getting tied up for a jump and then winning the tip).

A steal ends the opponent's possession without him getting a shot or getting to the line, AND you get the ball. So it's better than a blocked shot. But it DOES NOT get you an extra possession which is what ash claimed and why I responded. I just wanted to straight out ash's misconception on steals being part of the possession battle.

I think with regards to the SIM, it's all semantics. Is an OREB% an extra possession or did it extend a possession? Is a steal a shortening of a possession or a gained possession because the opponent wasted it? It was a stupid argument that had nothing to do with how the sim worked and I was annoyed by the breath wasted on it. No one was right and it clogged up a thread full of generally useful information that has helped a lot of people.

Everyone would benefit from moving on and having more substantive discussions about how things work.

An offensive rebound is an extra possession because.....

....The rules of basketball say that when the shot leaves the shooter's hand neither team now has team possession for the purposes of fouls and other things. That's why a foul on a rebound "is a loose ball foul." Neither team has team possession, so it's not an offensive or a defensive foul. A moving screen is an offensive foul because the offense still has team possession. Of course the 24 second clock does not reset on a ball that doesn't hit the rim, but that has no bearing on this part of it. When a player gets the ball on an air ball, he is credited with a rebound, so an air ball is a FGA. It just doesn't get you a new 24 because they want to prevent a team from trying to game the system with an "air ball" that is purposely thrown to a teammate to get a new 24. Any time there's a FGA, foul shots, or a turnover, a possession has ended.

A team doesn't "gain a possession" with a steal. They merely start the possession they are going to get anyway sooner. You can only gain a possession when you have 2 consecutive possessions. In can happen in high school ball when a technical is called as a shot is made, or during foul shots, because in high school all technical fouls result in a loss of possession along with the 2 shots. But that's not the NBA rule. On a technical in the NBA, after the one shot, the ball goes back to where it was at the point of interruption.

You are really dying on a hill that has nothing to do with what anyone else on this site is talking about. You are talking about some referee **** and everyone else is talking about the rules of a simulation engine. It's non-value added conversation.

I wouldn't go to a ref's forum and talk about the nuance of djikstra's algorithm. You are focusing on some semantic piece of the argument and missing the forest for the trees.

I'm trying to be an ally for you here and give you a little support. Please don't be so thickheaded as to burn the forest down.

Thanks, but no matter how you slice it, a steal does not get a team an extra possession. Whether anybody here cares about that is a different question. Clearly I am not here looking to win friends at the expense of the truth. When I see something that's incorrect like Ash's statement that "steals can get you extra possessions" I'm gonna say something. If that is gonna make some guys dislike me, that's fine.

Posted by benhoidal on 8/4/2022 10:38:00 PM (view original):
Steals ARE part of the possession battle. They may not technically add an extra possession, but they end the possession of the opponent with zero points, and give you possession of the ball. That’s the whole point of the possession battle.

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 10:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 8/4/2022 10:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 10:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 8/4/2022 10:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 9:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 8/4/2022 8:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 8/4/2022 6:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by thomcat on 8/4/2022 11:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 8/4/2022 11:10:00 AM (view original):
it's funny that the veteran dude who sm'd you never stepped forward... or is it?

In a recent league someone (not me) did post a note with a similar sentiment, so there is no reason to believe it is not legit. Neither is the post consistent with his style, of which we have a large sample. As over the top Savoy may be, I don't think there is any evidence he is not a straight shooter.

Lots of shots, though.

I got no reason to consider the dude a liar myself. I thought the sentiment was misplaced though. This community is super welcoming to new guys. Savoybg is a maniac and came out guns blazing on topics he knew nothing about, instead of being curious. However I believe he has good intentions even if he is a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows. I’d like him to find his feet because this community can always used more engaged individuals.

Hey, the first thing I said was that steals don't get you extra possessions, and they don't. That topic I know about. That has nothing to do with this sim, it's just a fact of basketball. Team A wins the tip and has the ball to start the game and Team B steals the ball. It's not an extra possession, it's just a possession that comes faster than it would have come because you ended the opponent's possession suddenly and now each team has had one possession. The only way to gain an extra possession on your opponent is an offensive rebound (other than fluke things like having the ball and getting tied up for a jump and then winning the tip).

A steal ends the opponent's possession without him getting a shot or getting to the line, AND you get the ball. So it's better than a blocked shot. But it DOES NOT get you an extra possession which is what ash claimed and why I responded. I just wanted to straight out ash's misconception on steals being part of the possession battle.

I think with regards to the SIM, it's all semantics. Is an OREB% an extra possession or did it extend a possession? Is a steal a shortening of a possession or a gained possession because the opponent wasted it? It was a stupid argument that had nothing to do with how the sim worked and I was annoyed by the breath wasted on it. No one was right and it clogged up a thread full of generally useful information that has helped a lot of people.

Everyone would benefit from moving on and having more substantive discussions about how things work.

An offensive rebound is an extra possession because.....

....The rules of basketball say that when the shot leaves the shooter's hand neither team now has team possession for the purposes of fouls and other things. That's why a foul on a rebound "is a loose ball foul." Neither team has team possession, so it's not an offensive or a defensive foul. A moving screen is an offensive foul because the offense still has team possession. Of course the 24 second clock does not reset on a ball that doesn't hit the rim, but that has no bearing on this part of it. When a player gets the ball on an air ball, he is credited with a rebound, so an air ball is a FGA. It just doesn't get you a new 24 because they want to prevent a team from trying to game the system with an "air ball" that is purposely thrown to a teammate to get a new 24. Any time there's a FGA, foul shots, or a turnover, a possession has ended.

A team doesn't "gain a possession" with a steal. They merely start the possession they are going to get anyway sooner. You can only gain a possession when you have 2 consecutive possessions. In can happen in high school ball when a technical is called as a shot is made, or during foul shots, because in high school all technical fouls result in a loss of possession along with the 2 shots. But that's not the NBA rule. On a technical in the NBA, after the one shot, the ball goes back to where it was at the point of interruption.

You are really dying on a hill that has nothing to do with what anyone else on this site is talking about. You are talking about some referee **** and everyone else is talking about the rules of a simulation engine. It's non-value added conversation.

I wouldn't go to a ref's forum and talk about the nuance of djikstra's algorithm. You are focusing on some semantic piece of the argument and missing the forest for the trees.

I'm trying to be an ally for you here and give you a little support. Please don't be so thickheaded as to burn the forest down.

Thanks, but no matter how you slice it, a steal does not get a team an extra possession. Whether anybody here cares about that is a different question. Clearly I am not here looking to win friends at the expense of the truth. When I see something that's incorrect like Ash's statement that "steals can get you extra possessions" I'm gonna say something. If that is gonna make some guys dislike me, that's fine.

You are applying truth from one world and trying to apply it to a world where it doesn't apply for no other reason than ego. It's silly. Let it go.

Posted by benhoidal on 8/4/2022 10:38:00 PM (view original):
Steals ARE part of the possession battle. They may not technically add an extra possession, but they end the possession of the opponent with zero points, and give you possession of the ball. That’s the whole point of the possession battle.

Posted by riftonapple on 8/4/2022 11:42:00 PM (view original):
There's enough material here for someone to complete a dissertation for a doctorate degree. Too bad we are just talking about fantasy basketball. :)
I say everyone agree to disagree and just drop it. One reason this theme is having trouble filling up is because this forum has clogged up with all of this back and forth. Take the discussion over to the below forum. I just want to play. I got a wife, a boss, several employees, and 3 kids I can hear argue anytime I want. I am trying to escape all of that.

SimLeague Basketball This is the place to discuss the game. Questions, results, logic discussions -- it all goes here.

Posted by riftonapple on 8/4/2022 11:42:00 PM (view original):
There's enough material here for someone to complete a dissertation for a doctorate degree. Too bad we are just talking about fantasy basketball. :)
I say everyone agree to disagree and just drop it. One reason this theme is having trouble filling up is because this forum has clogged up with all of this back and forth. Take the discussion over to the below forum. I just want to play. I got a wife, a boss, several employees, and 3 kids I can hear argue anytime I want. I am trying to escape all of that.

SimLeague Basketball This is the place to discuss the game. Questions, results, logic discussions -- it all goes here.