Cheater Confirmed! Topic

Maybe the system gave him 1000 AP instead of 100 AP.

But you know my favorite question for things like this….. Who is the coach? That’s gotta be blatantly obvious to other coaches scratching their head. But just don’t want to mention it. So it’s not like it’s a secret.

Blast away!
10/28/2022 3:08 PM
Will be interested in seeing what WIS says about this or what the explanation is.

There was a situation a year or so ago where a coach was accused of exploiting the (now closed) loophole of not renewing his team and then getting his team back the first cycle and getting extra recruiting money. It turned out the coach was forgetful and had screenshots showing he didn't spend the extra money.

Will be interested to see how this turns out...
10/28/2022 3:43 PM
CS has confirmed the user has been abusing a loophole in the recruiting process and they are working on fixing.

ANDDD boom goes the dynamite.

The user is Swenske04. He has St. John's in Allen and Texas in Naismith.

Get out your pitchforks boys! I have extra if needed.
10/28/2022 5:02 PM
Detective Benis solves another HD crime, great work!
10/28/2022 5:06 PM
Personally this really annoys me. He has been kicking my *** in recruiting for almost 15 seasons now. Every season it seems like he's on every single player so I assume he's stretched himself super thin but he always manages to fight me off easily.

I've asked CS if this will result in a ban. What does everyone think?
10/28/2022 5:07 PM
What was his trick?
Stuff like this pesses me off.
10/28/2022 5:43 PM
I think it should result in 15 free seasons for Benis and a removal of the offender from all of his worlds. A ban might be a little too harsh.
10/28/2022 5:47 PM
It’s annoying, but it’s on the developers to deal with loopholes - preferably before they’re exploited. Users shouldn’t be banned for looking for advantages, unless they are violating clearly stated rules (like those regarding collusion). The most I would support is removal of any ill-gotten resources, and maybe a warning to knock it off if they plan to explicitly outline that kind of behavior (whatever it was) as “cheating”.
10/28/2022 5:55 PM
Posted by npb7768 on 10/28/2022 5:44:00 PM (view original):
What was his trick?
Stuff like this pesses me off.
this definitely shouldn't be answered until its fixed. and perhaps beyond that, too. i've sent in some pretty serious recruiting glitches that could result in stuff along these lines, and i will talk about those things generally, but not the methods. too many of these problems are too related, too similar across decades, don't really want to facilitate ideas for the wrong folks.
10/28/2022 5:56 PM
Posted by gillispie on 10/28/2022 5:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by npb7768 on 10/28/2022 5:44:00 PM (view original):
What was his trick?
Stuff like this pesses me off.
this definitely shouldn't be answered until its fixed. and perhaps beyond that, too. i've sent in some pretty serious recruiting glitches that could result in stuff along these lines, and i will talk about those things generally, but not the methods. too many of these problems are too related, too similar across decades, don't really want to facilitate ideas for the wrong folks.
+1
10/28/2022 6:00 PM
Response from CS

"There won't be repercussions against the user as it's not a violation and he wasn't doing anything outside the game. He found a loophole with the current system and the devs are aware and will look to close this."
10/28/2022 6:02 PM
Posted by shoe3 on 10/28/2022 5:55:00 PM (view original):
It’s annoying, but it’s on the developers to deal with loopholes - preferably before they’re exploited. Users shouldn’t be banned for looking for advantages, unless they are violating clearly stated rules (like those regarding collusion). The most I would support is removal of any ill-gotten resources, and maybe a warning to knock it off if they plan to explicitly outline that kind of behavior (whatever it was) as “cheating”.
this is a complicated topic in many regards, but it doesn't mean its all gray. exploiting a glitch can run the gamut from completely permissable (many glitches end up being accepted functionality and explicitly condoned by development) to as cheating as cheating can get. it has to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

intentionally exploiting a serious glitch that is not being exploited elsewhere in the community... it depends on the circumstances, but absolutely serious consequences like banning an account, can be in play and appropriate. if this glitch is exploitable easily through the UI, and there's 20 other guys doing it, banning this dude may make little sense. if this is a glitch exploited through tooling, and this is the only guy, banning may be the reasonable course of aciton. it just depends.
10/28/2022 6:02 PM
My response to CS response

"He knew what he was doing was not within the Fairplay guidelines.

The Fairplay guidelines specifically say this is not allowed - "If an owner discovers a loophole, a way to cheat, or any other method of giving himself an unfair advantage"

He found a loophole and gave himself an unfair advantage. He was cheating. Those are the rules that WIS put forth and the community expects those rules to be upheld.

If people know there is no consequences from cheating, what prevents them from doing it?

Please reconsider."

10/28/2022 6:02 PM
He found a way to manipulate recruiting resources to give himself an advantage. This is, in my humble opinion, one of the worst kinds of violations you can have. Recruiting is the arguably the most important aspect of this game and directly impacts other users. His team gets better others get worse.

What if someone got fired from their job because they got crushed in recruiting by a cheater. Is that fair?
10/28/2022 6:09 PM
its good let emotions cool in cases like this. and to give CS time to fully investigate. these situations are more morally ambiguous than you are allowing for right now.

for example, this dude may have heard of this from several other folks who are all doing it. they may assume a significant portion of the community is already doing it, which makes not doing it, a competitive disadvantage. it really matters a lot how widespread an activity is, in making these kinds of calls.

for a historical HD example, for a long time, game admins would not confirm or deny pulldowns existed for d2/d3. a small %, i mean significantly less than 5%, of users were using them, and basically it made the better ones among those users non-competitive with the 95%+ of the community, it was an un-bridgeable gap.

this was OK - it was intentional behavior put in by the original creator. but how did those users know it was ok? if they stopped to think about it, which probably never happened, it might have been a pretty reasonable gray area to consider.

then later, due largely to some outrage, the game creator came out and said point blank 'we removed pulldowns from the game'. but that wasn't true. a user found a way to keep doing them, and slowly some others caught on. normally, if a game creator says 'X is impossible', and a well-informed user finds that is not true, and exploits it to great effect - which happened in HD - i would consider that on the wrong side of the line. reporting it would be a minimum necessity, and if the game staff was like, that's fine, or ignored it, then maybe you go ahead. but at least give them a chance to fix it. its different if you already know 50 other people are doing it, then you are really putting yourself at a disadvantage not to use it.

anyway, in real HD, the game creator was super unclear about what was intentional or not, the impression i got later was, he knew pulldowns were still in the game, when he told us they weren't, and he did it 'for the mystery'. this creates near-impossible moral quandries for the user base, and in my opinion, its the original game creator who was unambiguously wrong in the above, completely true story. nobody knows 100% of the story, because of that intentional ambiguity, but frankly it was complete bullshit almost any way you can spin it.

to be unambiguous cheating, in these sort of circumstances, you need some real factors against that person. like if someone hacked into the WIS servers and changed the game outcomes, its not against fair play guidelines, but its probably against terms of use of the site and regardless, is unambiguously cheating. if you create a tool to expoit a glitch in the game, like aim bots in shooters and those sorts of things, the tooling creator is almost surely unambiguously cheating. its different to be the 10,000th guy to download the aimbot, but by then the site staff usually clearly call that cheating and perma-ban that guy anyway. the original creator of the hack / exploit / whatever you want to call it, may not have actually violated written rules, but users of that level of competency also have to have a higher bar applied to them. they should know better. and nobody reads the terms of use anyway. sometimes you have to call a spade a spade.

it sounds like the user here didn't use external tooling, or use security vulnerabilities in HD to reach their ends. its unclear how many users are doing this, i've wondered a bunch of times how people had so many AP on certain players early, where i'm very low with 20AP and the guy in the lead is on other people. this guy who you caught may well be the only guy, or may well be the 100th guy, who heard about it from 3 different friends before he started himself. its super unclear based on the info provided.. and it is VERY hard for site staff to perfectly navigate these issues, especially when paying customers are involved. some allowance for the complexity of these issues is really called for, from the user base, from us.
10/28/2022 6:23 PM
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