I really hope WIS has something in place to catch people using this exploit now that it has been exposed to the community...

i knew cimmy was a cheater. glad it's been confirmed. if these guys are active at same programs next season i'll be leaving HD for good. they've ruined it for me. if they are bumped to D3 to start over and do it without cheating (which i doubt they can) then i'll stick around.

Posted by salag on 11/1/2022 3:32:00 PM (view original):
I really hope WIS has something in place to catch people using this exploit now that it has been exposed to the community...

Their dragnet picked up a bunch of people already, I don’t think we have to worry about people getting away with using it until the exploit is eliminated.

Posted by jc14 on 11/1/2022 3:17:00 PM (view original):
Believe what you want, but my dad and my uncles never had 24 scholarships open in 5 cycles and, like I said, they reported it immediately and were not told it was against the rules, it was never fixed, and they were actually told that “yes, it provides benefit.” And, now they’re banned for life. Doesn’t seem fair to me

I believe you. I know those guys and played along side them. I don’t have nothing foul to say about them. I don’t even know their involvement. And neither does anyone else yet

i know enough. i guessed cimmy as one before today's posts. hate to see what these people are like in real life if they are this bent up on winning in a silly game. doogan's post make more sense now too. i hope these guys can find peace and self-confidence eventually.

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 3:46:00 PM (view original):
i know enough. i guessed cimmy as one before today's posts. hate to see what these people are like in real life if they are this bent up on winning in a silly game. doogan's post make more sense now too. i hope these guys can find peace and self-confidence eventually.

Good lord you have no idea of what you speak. If you think you're going to start winning championships because you got these talented coaches banned for life, I think you're in for a rude awakening. Please do elaborate on how you just knew he was a cheater. I'd love to hear your evidence but I suspect it's just a "feeling" based on your lack of success against him. Since you're ready to slander at the drop of a hat, let's hear it. Whatcha got?

Posted by jc14 on 11/1/2022 2:52:00 PM (view original):
robinhood410 is my dad. He is one of the people caught up in this ridiculous ordeal. He has taught me a lot of things, including a true love for HD, and, more importantly, he has taught me honestly and integrity not just through his words but by his deeds. He is not a cheater. Neither are Doogan or Cimmy426 (who are my uncles) nor BDash - a good friend of theirs. I don't know this swenske guy or anyone else that was banned (maybe they're terrible people who cheat at everything, I dunno), but I do know those guys, and they were absolutely NOT doing anything that they thought was, in ANY WAY, against the rules or against any fair play.

I have been following this forum since they got banned, and a lot of people have jumped to some wild conclusions. This whole "scheme" as people have so eloquently labeled it, was as simple as this - if you inform a recruit that he will be redshirted and then, in a later cycle, if you inform him that he will NOT be redshirted, you gain some "recruiting credit." My uncle (cimmy426) discovered this, by accident, one day when he changed his mind about redshirting a guy, informed him of no redshirt and noticed that he had improved his status with the recruit just by that action. My uncle (who is also a highly respected HBD commissioner who has ferreted out cheaters himself) thought that it might be a glitch, so he immediately reported it to Customer Service. And, NOT ONLY did CS not tell him that it was against the rules, but they CONFIRMED that it provided recruiting benefits.

So, they figured that it was part of the game, which makes sense to me, too. I mean wouldn't a recruit want to hear that he was definitely NOT going to be redshirted? Of course he would! So, it makes sense that you would gain some recruiting credit by telling a kid "hey, i will NOT redshirt you." And, what also makes sense, is that it wasn't all that much credit - maybe equal to about 30-40 APs, which seems like a lot when used a ton in the first day (to benis's original point), but it wasn't swinging any individual battles by more than a percentage point or two. That said, the point about the perception of effort is a good one. So, for that, I am glad that it is coming to light. Because if people know about it (and, these guys had no reason to think that people did not know about it), then maybe that "perception advantage" wouldn't be an advantage. That's a fair point and reason to change the system, but still shows that they did nothing wrong.

Also, and this is another key point, there are downsides to it. One, you can't "lay claim" to a recruit because it takes multiple cycles to play out (inform of redshirt then inform of no redshirt then use APs). But, that's minor. The major downside is that sometimes, if the recruit was at a level of quality that would never accept a redshirt from your team, he would get very mad at the "inform of redshirt" and no amount of recruiting effort (including "inform of no redshirt") would make him consider you at all. Everything would be 0% even with like a thousand APs or whatever.. Nothing. So, this "trick" or "hack" as you guys call it, or "viable recruiting gamble" as these guys thought of it, was just that - a gamble. It was of absolutely no use in D2. And that is why (before you all ask) I have never used it - not because I, in any way, thought it was cheating (I would never cheat...my dad taught me that) - I have never used it because I have never played in D1 and, in D2, I usually try to recruit D1 guys (another thing my dad taught me) and D1 guys would never accept a redshirt at D2, so this "hack" would have backfired on me. So, these guys looked at it as a viable, legal, open recruiting gamble at D1 that was available to anyone but had to be used strategically. My dad and these guys never used it on their top targets or on anyone they didn't want to risk losing. They only used it for fallback options and rotation pieces and stuff. You all weren't "robbed of championships" because of it, I promise. Also, they never did it in D2. So, for those that want to tear them all down and say that their success was simply due to some ridiculous cheating conspiracy, take a step back and look at their D2 resumes and their resumes before they stumbled upon this thing. They are very good at this game and have tried to teach me the best they could. They do not collude. They do not cheat. They play the game fairly, and they play the game well. Many of you should know that after all the years you've played with them.

So, to me the bottom line is that this became a runaway train that has just run over a couple of really good users and, more importantly, a couple of really good people. It's fine. They all have full lives without Whatifsports, but they have been, from what I can tell, highly respected members of this online community for 18 years...EIGHTEEN YEARS!!! And, now they are getting railroaded out of here for something that they did not even know was wrong AND for something that they brought to the attention of Customer Service when they first discovered it.

I am proud of my dad and my uncles. They handle their lives with integrity and honesty and took this injustice a lot better than I would have. I just really hope you all read this post with objectivity and open minds because they didn't do anything wrong.

Respectfully,
JC14

Okay, so just like we thought, these guys stumbled upon a glitch, they knew they had an advantage, they cheated and are banned. I do not feel bad for 2 grown men who knew they had an advantage.... sorry but your Dad and Uncle are getting what they deserve.

I *especially* do not care about the *good people* argument. This is a freakin simulation website. If you'd like to count real life good deeds, i'd be happy to lay mine out on the table <3 for all to look at. This isn't real life though and we can just judge by actions on this site, sorry that there are consequences for cheating, sorry that you are proud of 2 of your older adult male father figures for it.

Posted by almersk on 11/1/2022 3:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 3:46:00 PM (view original):
i know enough. i guessed cimmy as one before today's posts. hate to see what these people are like in real life if they are this bent up on winning in a silly game. doogan's post make more sense now too. i hope these guys can find peace and self-confidence eventually.

Good lord you have no idea of what you speak. If you think you're going to start winning championships because you got these talented coaches banned for life, I think you're in for a rude awakening. Please do elaborate on how you just knew he was a cheater. I'd love to hear your evidence but I suspect it's just a "feeling" based on your lack of success against him. Since you're ready to slander at the drop of a hat, let's hear it. Whatcha got?

Deny, deny, deny, gasllight, insult, gaslight again, insult again, and never admit you're a cheater. Actually, the cheaters are the *real* victims!!

I cant get into Smith World to check old NT brackets, but i had stacked rosters at Miami of FL and then Kentucky. Wonder if i lost to any of these juiced up rosters.

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 3:33:00 PM (view original):
i knew cimmy was a cheater. glad it's been confirmed. if these guys are active at same programs next season i'll be leaving HD for good. they've ruined it for me. if they are bumped to D3 to start over and do it without cheating (which i doubt they can) then i'll stick around.

I nearly posted yesterday that I’ve been battling someone in Allen for years in which I couldn’t understand how he had the resources he did to be on recruits all over the globe, be in on so many guys early, etc. I hit the point in the last few years where if I see Hawaii, I stay away because I always seem to not have enough to keep up.

It came to a head for me a few seasons ago on Wachiru Arboleda. My preferences very much lined up, I offered like 12 home visits on an international recruit blowing my budget as an A prestige, promised start, 25 minutes, etc. I was investing about 50 points/cycle too. And yet I ended up getting pushed down to Moderate while Hawaii was involved in other battles too. I even searched the forums to see if Hawaii got some type of bump that I didn’t know about since it seemed impossible for someone to give that much effort while winning battles so far from home.

The past two seasons only confirmed my suspicions, as he beat everyone to top international recruits again and again.

I hope it’s not true and it’s just been dumb luck (or I suck at recruiting)…but it’s been bad enough to get me to think I’m wasting my time with WIS and it’s time to move along. This just sucks.

Lamphet, we don't run in the same recruiting circles as I'm a B-/C+ MAC guy, but I've experienced the same thing with Hawaii. If I have 5 or 6 openings, I'm much more likely to stick my neck out for a high quality international, but more often than not - 1st cycle, there's Hawaii with 'Very High' and a scholarship, so I'd back off.

I just figured that was life with an A prestige.

Posted by lamphet on 11/1/2022 4:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 3:33:00 PM (view original):
i knew cimmy was a cheater. glad it's been confirmed. if these guys are active at same programs next season i'll be leaving HD for good. they've ruined it for me. if they are bumped to D3 to start over and do it without cheating (which i doubt they can) then i'll stick around.

I nearly posted yesterday that I’ve been battling someone in Allen for years in which I couldn’t understand how he had the resources he did to be on recruits all over the globe, be in on so many guys early, etc. I hit the point in the last few years where if I see Hawaii, I stay away because I always seem to not have enough to keep up.

It came to a head for me a few seasons ago on Wachiru Arboleda. My preferences very much lined up, I offered like 12 home visits on an international recruit blowing my budget as an A prestige, promised start, 25 minutes, etc. I was investing about 50 points/cycle too. And yet I ended up getting pushed down to Moderate while Hawaii was involved in other battles too. I even searched the forums to see if Hawaii got some type of bump that I didn’t know about since it seemed impossible for someone to give that much effort while winning battles so far from home.

The past two seasons only confirmed my suspicions, as he beat everyone to top international recruits again and again.

I hope it’s not true and it’s just been dumb luck (or I suck at recruiting)…but it’s been bad enough to get me to think I’m wasting my time with WIS and it’s time to move along. This just sucks.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, it's important for the community to continue to see users like you who rarely post come forward in a time like this. Seriously, everyone, notice how many people are coming to say they have gotten *close* to quitting or something similar. How many actually *have already* quit and we just don't know due to this situation? How many have dropped teams or moved locations as these clowns were exploiting a glitch they knew was giving them an advantage? How many just play this game and don't visit the forums and don't even know this is happening?

CS has made an incredible move showing that they have no tolerance here, it sets a great precedent going forward imo

Tell us how you really feel, community!!

Wow. I’m the one with the supposed pitchfork. And I ain’t near as bothered as some. But all I can say is look at what things like this can do. I hope we all take note of this for the future. Just play fair. I agree that it is just a site, and not an attack on the man(s) himself. But for those that are defending, take the personal element out of it. And just view how the community is responding to actions taken by a select few. It can be crippling. No matter how YOU feel about it. Crazy day here

After reading JC14s post, this isn’t as bad as I initially thought. Yes it does give a huge advantage, but it’s a mechanic that’s built into the game. Maybe this mechanic needs to be changed because of the advantage it can create, but I don’t consider this cheating. They figured out how the game works and they used it to make their team better. It sucks that it left a large majority of coaches at a disadvantage, but there’s no expectation that if somebody finds a scouting or recruiting advantage that they’re supposed to broadcast it to competing coaches. They asked if it was a bug, they were told no. It was/is a game mechanic. Hopefully it gets changed now but I don’t think these users should face any punishment.

I don’t care if this is an unpopular opinion, it’s just how I feel about the situation now.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe this mechanic should have been explained in the HD guides on site, but there are plenty of other complicated mechanics that aren’t explained on those guides and must be learned on your own or from other coaches that willingly help others.

Serious question: Did you guys read jc14's post? Let's be reasonable and consider the following:

1. cimmy426 reported it to CS. Would a "cheater" be more likely to contact CS about it or more likely to use it without bringing it to their attention? Be honest.

2. CS confirmed that it should offer recruiting credit. CS did not indicate that it was not something he should not be doing. You may be skeptical, but can you honestly say that it would be unreasonable to think it was ok, especially when you consider, as jc14 explained, that it also makes sense from the perspective of the recruit? You may not be willing to give that benefit of the doubt, but it's certainly not unreasonable.

3. Is a lifetime ban an appropriate punishment, regardless? No warning. Just the death penalty? I'm certain that if you compare these coaches' success at DII to their success at DI, you won't find a difference. Not Swenske - I don't know him - but cimmy426 and robinhood410. I know these guys and I can assure you that their success is not dependent on this thing, at all. It's seriously ridiculous to attribute their success ALL THESE YEARS to this - it's ridiculous and stupid, straight up. I heard a lot of complaining about how little punishment has been doled out previously. Seems like a reactionary over-correction in response to the angry mob. It's appropriate to be upset. It's not appropriate to be calling for lifetime bans because your confirmation bias has been activated. It honestly sounds ridiculous to me.

Okay so I just took a look, in ALL of HD, every single world, Hawaii at D1 has won a total of 4 titles. Of those 4 in 10 worlds, 3 have come by Cimmy in the last 20 or so seasons he's played in Allen (From 113-134). So before he took over, 1 title ever. Suddenly in 20 seasons, Hawaii is a 3 time National Champ. They really must be the best coaches on the site or...