Cheater Confirmed! Topic

Posted by tmacfan12 on 11/1/2022 7:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gomiami1972 on 11/1/2022 7:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tmacfan12 on 11/1/2022 6:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trail on 11/1/2022 6:56:00 PM (view original):
Interesting turn here. This isn't as blatant as I initially imagined either, but still not fair play IMO. If you're doing something that you can be confident 99% of other coaches, including HD legends, are not remotely aware of, then you might be doing something sketchy.

If you stood for the integrity of the game, you'd make more noise about it. You wouldn't quietly continue to take advantage while having a significant advantage over 99%+ of the community.

On that note, this isn't quite the same as doubling your APs each cycle, but being able to get a head start on offering a recruit is huge, for reasons we all know. If a school offers within two cycles, you know they mean business and you might reconsider whether you want to engage in what's likely to be an expensive battle.
Something is getting lost here. The only way Hawaii would be able to win 3 NCs in 20 seasons after as a program in all of HD (all 10 worlds) only winning 1 in over 1500 seasons means that a lot more was happening then just unlocking recruits unfairly. In the Big East Allen CC it was recently posted by lamphet

"I was involved in some recruiting every now and then with St Johns, but personally never spotted anything out of the ordinary…but recruiting against Hawaii the past several seasons has proven so fruitless that I intentionally avoided international guys this year until I saw that he wasn’t on them (and he was VH with a ship offered to both after the second cycle).
I can't keep up with the posts. Hawaii was involved? DI Hawaii?
Yes D1 Hawaii in Allen has won 3 NC in around the last 20 seasons.
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=6930

Previously across all 10 worlds, before Cimmy had taken over, a single National Championship had been won by any Hawaii team. That was a 24 win NC team in Season 27 in Smith. Other than that, 0 titles until Cimmy recently made them a Dynasty.
Thanks to favre also for posting the link.

Ok, that actually ****** me off royally...for the first time while reading this thread. I can't stand cheating but I was taking the discussion with a level head. Now, I actually hope that ********** does get a lifetime ban.

DI Hawaii is sacred in my book because it is the hardest DI job by far and success there is a career-making achievement...assuming it is done honestly. I have always viewed a DI Hawaii Final Four as equivalent to a National Title, IMHO.
11/1/2022 8:06 PM
Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 8:00:00 PM (view original):
you can't call yourself topdoggg (3 friggin g's!!) and then be humble. revise your post!!!!
It’s only 2 g’s! gbm at the end is my initials! And I’ve made myself pretty clear. I don’t like it. I’m just not keying on Hawaii as a catalyst even tho it’s possible sticking point. And I’m not keying on how long or how much cheat was going on. Cheating is in the mind. And the minds of these guys (whoever they are) that did it, they KNEW. And that’s what matters
11/1/2022 8:10 PM
Hawaii is the perfect place to implement it too, because AP’s and redshirts are geographically agnostic. If the loophole was simply more cash, he would still burn through it much more quickly that anyone else.
11/1/2022 8:16 PM
Posted by cal_bears on 11/1/2022 8:02:00 PM (view original):
Could someone say briefly what the loophole actually was? This is a lot to read through. It was a hack? What exactly was done to get more ap for the coach?
Is this what happened?
"Let's go over how it probably went down. Knowing of this loophole, I with confidence could offer every 5-star D1 talent I like 0 or 1 AP and inform of the redshirt in the first cycle. I can then spread the rest of my AP on all the 4 or 3 star players I like and inform them of a redshirt knowing they are less likely to react adversely to it. By the second cycle, I know every 5 star player that did not react harshly to the redshirt and I can exploit with the loophole bonus when I remove the redshirt, and since I've got experience using this exploit I would know what the minimum AP needed to unlock them would be. So I move the AP I used in the first cycle on the 4 and 3 star targets to the 5 stars. Then I get the unredshirt bonus too with the 4 and 3 star players, and once again with experience, know the minimum AP to use on them to unlock them as well. And that, as I see it, is how Swenske unlocked TWO DOZEN players by the third cycle. Yeah, that's massively unfair.

We also need to remember that Swenske and the rest of the cheaters/loopholers knew who each other were, so they probably avoided each other as much as possible. That is another unfair advantage that we haven't brought up, or at least I haven't seen discussed much here."

If so, then it's finding a loophole and using it to your advantage, and I find that hard to punish. The real problem is what is said in the second paragraph. If two teams are on those interenational players, then others back off since they cost so much. The silly thing is that people back off from battles with Hawaii for international recruits ALREADY because you know that that school has to go all in on internationals.

Is there more nuance to the cheating than stated in the quoted part?
11/1/2022 8:20 PM
Posted by cal_bears on 11/1/2022 8:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cal_bears on 11/1/2022 8:02:00 PM (view original):
Could someone say briefly what the loophole actually was? This is a lot to read through. It was a hack? What exactly was done to get more ap for the coach?
Is this what happened?
"Let's go over how it probably went down. Knowing of this loophole, I with confidence could offer every 5-star D1 talent I like 0 or 1 AP and inform of the redshirt in the first cycle. I can then spread the rest of my AP on all the 4 or 3 star players I like and inform them of a redshirt knowing they are less likely to react adversely to it. By the second cycle, I know every 5 star player that did not react harshly to the redshirt and I can exploit with the loophole bonus when I remove the redshirt, and since I've got experience using this exploit I would know what the minimum AP needed to unlock them would be. So I move the AP I used in the first cycle on the 4 and 3 star targets to the 5 stars. Then I get the unredshirt bonus too with the 4 and 3 star players, and once again with experience, know the minimum AP to use on them to unlock them as well. And that, as I see it, is how Swenske unlocked TWO DOZEN players by the third cycle. Yeah, that's massively unfair.

We also need to remember that Swenske and the rest of the cheaters/loopholers knew who each other were, so they probably avoided each other as much as possible. That is another unfair advantage that we haven't brought up, or at least I haven't seen discussed much here."

If so, then it's finding a loophole and using it to your advantage, and I find that hard to punish. The real problem is what is said in the second paragraph. If two teams are on those interenational players, then others back off since they cost so much. The silly thing is that people back off from battles with Hawaii for international recruits ALREADY because you know that that school has to go all in on internationals.

Is there more nuance to the cheating than stated in the quoted part?
No, this is a pretty good summary.
11/1/2022 8:23 PM
Honestly, everyone calling for a life time ban needs to calm down. Stop being ridiculous. I propose the following:

1st Offense - Ten "thank you sir may I have another" spankings from the coach of their choosing.

2nd Offense - Must read Gil's 1,700 page Auto-biography. Twice.

3rd Offense - Must listen to a podcast every night for a month starring me, Poopshoe and MikeT where we only discuss the random nature of Early Entries

Cheat at your own risk fellas.
11/1/2022 8:25 PM
I do think what some are missing is the value of staking off more recruiting territory than you should be able to early in the season. There is an advantage to being the first to offer a recruit a scholarship. It doesn’t come out in the programming logic but it is a matter of perception. When a recruit has an offer from a human coach, there is an immediate decision to be made by any other human considering that player: do I want to invest enough to go to war for this player? When there are several players like that from the same coach, he just staked out a lot of recruiting ground. Basically, the coach is saying, “I’m here, if you want this guy, you are going to have to come through me.”
11/1/2022 8:27 PM
i was thinking trial by combat. but benis seems to know a lot about torture.
11/1/2022 8:28 PM
Posted by topdogggbm on 11/1/2022 7:56:00 PM (view original):
I’m not as concerned about Hawaii as others are. Sure it might smell funny. But a good coach could win anywhere.

THE most convincing thing, and nothing more, is that elite veteran coaches were doing this, knowing they knew something that others as a whole did not know about (including other elite coeches), they shared it amongst a small circle of themselves, and continued to do it. Bottom line.

I’m a good coach. Elite? That’s up for others to debate. But I have no problem sharing everything I do, with all coaches in HD. I like the competition. If I started to share something with coaches, and it smelled fishy, and they said to me “I’ve never heard of this”, my instincts would tell me to discuss it with many others. If it was foul, I’d feel that way. And I’d know better. There’s NOTHING about this entire scandal that is gray area. They knew they found something. They knew they were in an exclusive group that knew it and no others knew. And they knew it would be a problem if they went public With it. So they kept it to themselves and did it as long as they could. And here we are. A tainted conference, a tainted legacy as a group. What more needs to be said?
I hear you, top. I understand if skeptics choose not to believe me but I think the advantage gained is being grossly misunderstood. I would suggest, if one wants to honestly use historical data to get to the truth (not necessarily to back up one's point), to compare the cohort's (cimmy426, robinhood410, doogan) performance over divisions and nearly 2 decades. If you accept my premise that cimmy426 is just really good at the game, then comparing his performance at Hawaii to Hawaii's historical performance has very little value because he's just better then "the field". Look at the track records of all 3 coaches and you tell me if it makes sense that they just lucked up on this goldmine of an advantage. If you, and I'm obviously not just talking to you, top (@tmac), but if you are being an honest broker, it won't show any kind of anomaly - I'm quite sure. The truth is they have always been exceptional and it's not because they just keep finding the latest, hottest tip. Just saying. I'm sure that there are tons of coaches who could attest. So are we just talking about the last 2-3 years?
11/1/2022 8:29 PM
Posted by Benis on 11/1/2022 8:25:00 PM (view original):
Honestly, everyone calling for a life time ban needs to calm down. Stop being ridiculous. I propose the following:

1st Offense - Ten "thank you sir may I have another" spankings from the coach of their choosing.

2nd Offense - Must read Gil's 1,700 page Auto-biography. Twice.

3rd Offense - Must listen to a podcast every night for a month starring me, Poopshoe and MikeT where we only discuss the random nature of Early Entries

Cheat at your own risk fellas.
I volunteer to be the producer of this podcast.
11/1/2022 8:30 PM
Am I missing something here? Wouldn't they just be able to spam this non-stop?

I just offered a redshirt and took it away in Tark, a world where I have 0 openings and am not recruiting. If that adds in extra effort now, I could do that next cycle too right? Wouldn't they be getting a boost every single cycle?
11/1/2022 8:31 PM
Ok,done for the night. Watching my Phils. I hope everything calms down a bit overnight.
11/1/2022 8:33 PM
Yes, I agree favre, that's why I think it's silly Hawaii did this. I think it's really easy to recruit at Hawaii. Always have four open schollies and 17000 to spend and 100 ap. You can focus on two internationals and dump 5000 on two guys and open two of them on the first cycle, or close to it. Then coaches are going to back off because they know that Hawaii has to get the top internationals to be competitive and will focus resources on a couple guys. Others know he can likely go to 10000 on the top target, and no one wants to compete with that. And with focus on 2 each season, others don't know which of the targets will be the main focus. Then if there are top recruits in HI as there are every few seasons, that's gravy and basically free.
So it's dumb and unnecessary to cheat in Hawaii in my view.
11/1/2022 8:34 PM
Posted by cal_bears on 11/1/2022 8:02:00 PM (view original):
Could someone say briefly what the loophole actually was? This is a lot to read through. It was a hack? What exactly was done to get more ap for the coach?
For some context, this is from the Hawaii coach's brother's son:

"robinhood410 is my dad. He is one of the people caught up in this ridiculous ordeal. He has taught me a lot of things, including a true love for HD, and, more importantly, he has taught me honestly and integrity not just through his words but by his deeds. He is not a cheater. Neither are Doogan or Cimmy426 (who are my uncles) nor BDash - a good friend of theirs. I don't know this swenske guy or anyone else that was banned (maybe they're terrible people who cheat at everything, I dunno), but I do know those guys, and they were absolutely NOT doing anything that they thought was, in ANY WAY, against the rules or against any fair play.

I have been following this forum since they got banned, and a lot of people have jumped to some wild conclusions. This whole "scheme" as people have so eloquently labeled it, was as simple as this - if you inform a recruit that he will be redshirted and then, in a later cycle, if you inform him that he will NOT be redshirted, you gain some "recruiting credit." My uncle (cimmy426) discovered this, by accident, one day when he changed his mind about redshirting a guy, informed him of no redshirt and noticed that he had improved his status with the recruit just by that action. My uncle (who is also a highly respected HBD commissioner who has ferreted out cheaters himself) thought that it might be a glitch, so he immediately reported it to Customer Service. And, NOT ONLY did CS not tell him that it was against the rules, but they CONFIRMED that it provided recruiting benefits.

So, they figured that it was part of the game, which makes sense to me, too. I mean wouldn't a recruit want to hear that he was definitely NOT going to be redshirted? Of course he would! So, it makes sense that you would gain some recruiting credit by telling a kid "hey, i will NOT redshirt you." And, what also makes sense, is that it wasn't all that much credit - maybe equal to about 30-40 APs, which seems like a lot when used a ton in the first day (to benis's original point), but it wasn't swinging any individual battles by more than a percentage point or two. That said, the point about the perception of effort is a good one. So, for that, I am glad that it is coming to light. Because if people know about it (and, these guys had no reason to think that people did not know about it), then maybe that "perception advantage" wouldn't be an advantage. That's a fair point and reason to change the system, but still shows that they did nothing wrong.

Also, and this is another key point, there are downsides to it. One, you can't "lay claim" to a recruit because it takes multiple cycles to play out (inform of redshirt then inform of no redshirt then use APs). But, that's minor. The major downside is that sometimes, if the recruit was at a level of quality that would never accept a redshirt from your team, he would get very mad at the "inform of redshirt" and no amount of recruiting effort (including "inform of no redshirt") would make him consider you at all. Everything would be 0% even with like a thousand APs or whatever.. Nothing. So, this "trick" or "hack" as you guys call it, or "viable recruiting gamble" as these guys thought of it, was just that - a gamble. It was of absolutely no use in D2. And that is why (before you all ask) I have never used it - not because I, in any way, thought it was cheating (I would never cheat...my dad taught me that) - I have never used it because I have never played in D1 and, in D2, I usually try to recruit D1 guys (another thing my dad taught me) and D1 guys would never accept a redshirt at D2, so this "hack" would have backfired on me. So, these guys looked at it as a viable, legal, open recruiting gamble at D1 that was available to anyone but had to be used strategically. My dad and these guys never used it on their top targets or on anyone they didn't want to risk losing. They only used it for fallback options and rotation pieces and stuff. You all weren't "robbed of championships" because of it, I promise. Also, they never did it in D2. So, for those that want to tear them all down and say that their success was simply due to some ridiculous cheating conspiracy, take a step back and look at their D2 resumes and their resumes before they stumbled upon this thing. They are very good at this game and have tried to teach me the best they could. They do not collude. They do not cheat. They play the game fairly, and they play the game well. Many of you should know that after all the years you've played with them.

So, to me the bottom line is that this became a runaway train that has just run over a couple of really good users and, more importantly, a couple of really good people. It's fine. They all have full lives without Whatifsports, but they have been, from what I can tell, highly respected members of this online community for 18 years...EIGHTEEN YEARS!!! And, now they are getting railroaded out of here for something that they did not even know was wrong AND for something that they brought to the attention of Customer Service when they first discovered it.

I am proud of my dad and my uncles. They handle their lives with integrity and honesty and took this injustice a lot better than I would have. I just really hope you all read this post with objectivity and open minds because they didn't do anything wrong.

Respectfully,
JC14"
11/1/2022 8:42 PM
Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 8:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Benis on 11/1/2022 8:25:00 PM (view original):
Honestly, everyone calling for a life time ban needs to calm down. Stop being ridiculous. I propose the following:

1st Offense - Ten "thank you sir may I have another" spankings from the coach of their choosing.

2nd Offense - Must read Gil's 1,700 page Auto-biography. Twice.

3rd Offense - Must listen to a podcast every night for a month starring me, Poopshoe and MikeT where we only discuss the random nature of Early Entries

Cheat at your own risk fellas.
I volunteer to be the producer of this podcast.
If I had to read ANY of Gil’s long posts, I’d stoop to any level to avoid it. Including cheating! Is ask you all for your user information and throw every game against myself before I had to read that. I have limited time. And my limited, you all can see that I’ve spent ALL day on this thread. And I don’t have time for that!

can we please move “reading Gil’s 1,700 word posts” down some? Like put that one AFTER a lifetime ban?
11/1/2022 8:46 PM
◂ Prev 1...20|21|22|23|24...37 Next ▸
Cheater Confirmed! Topic

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2026 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.