Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 7:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cimmy426 on 11/3/2022 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 11/3/2022 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 3:49:00 PM (view original):
I think robinhood410 has made me feel great about the circumstances with his words. I’m all for him returning. Based off what I see in the discord. But I feel like cimmy is still combative and I’m not as much on board with him as I am Robinhood. I know they are of the same bunch. But they are reacting totally different to the situation. And that’s fine.

just throwing my thoughts out there

people tend not to react well to being called a cheater, yelled at, berated, etc... i know you and i don't see eye to eye on this, but i have found more success personally winning hearts and minds with calm discourse than confrontation.

i agree that this situation here was too serious to handle offline between coaches, without involving CS. i'm not saying we should have done that here, at all. but one should only expect a cimmy-style reaction to come with the territory. i suspect he will come around some in time, when emotions have cooled. that is one more problem with the pitchfork style you encourage. it doesn't give time for emotions to cool and for heads to level.

If you don’t think I’m being more fair then I normally am, you’re not reading. You’re right that you and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things (but honestly that’s more for the show than anything). I’m being VERY open minded about this. I put myself in their shoes……
1) i get ****** back at first
2) I think about it a bit more
3) I listen
4) I view what dozens of others had to say
5) I make a judgement.

in this case I’d feel like, ok I get it. I see why the community is mad. I’d like to apologize, explain, and ask for forgiveness somewhat. Do I owe that to anyone? Of course not. But you guys are my gaming peers and you’re throwing fire at me. I now see why.

next step is to let others know that I get it.

cimmy is not on that at all. He’s still being defensive. So is the entire community wrong? Is CS wrong? Or is 2-5 people wrong? You tell me. From there, if one doesn’t know what to do and how to act, I don’t know what to tell ya.

if a Top-style answer comes with a pitchfork as some of you say, the fact that I can say ‘my bad’ guys if I screw up, should hold a LOT of weight with the community. Be human. Admit wrong. Move forward. Doogan’s post about ‘I disagree it was a big advantage’. Get real. We’ve documented 1000 reasons why it IS compared to his ONE that it isn’t. OWN UP, and it all ends. But the problem is, those who don’t, can’t fake it. They really can’t grasp why it’s an issue. And that’s fine. But they won’t get much love from us if they feel that way

Would you admit wrong if you didn't feel like you were wrong? I honestly don't think robinhood thinks it was wrong either, but he's a people pleaser, and the mob needs a sacrifice, so he's ready and willing. All 3 of us have truly been very open and honest with our statements about all of this, even as the accusations drifted from hacking the website for unlimited APs to being the same people to hiding that we know each other to colluding and hiding secrets from people to whatever the other outlandish things were. If you choose not to believe us, that's obviously your prerogative. If you choose to believe us and disagree, that's cool too. If you want to hate us and/or attribute all of our successes at this game to this one thing, go ahead. It's just wild how this whole thing went down.

It’s very rare for me that in a circumstance like this, where I see dozens of others freaking out, to not stop and think about things, and view thru their eyes. I just don’t see how you can actually feel that you weren’t wrong in any way shape or form. It does happen but it’s rare when 1 person is right and the other 99 are wrong. And after hearing all parties, I just don’t see a way to stand your ground THIS much, in your situation. I’d clearly see how I affected others. Doesn’t mean That you cheated us so bad that we all lost hundreds of dollars. But your decisions caused an impact. You just choose not to see it I am assuming

and again to be clear, I’m not pitchforking. I don’t think you’ve been ‘rude’ which I appreciate. And I’m glad you’re communicating with us. And in this case I’m not screaming out loud. I’m trying to be reasonable. If it’s life or death situation, I can tell you’re the type of guy I’d pal up with and we’d conquer the task at hand. But in a “game”, with people of all sorts and incomes of all sorts, I can’t paint a scenario where I don’t feel it’s wrong.

Definitely don’t hate you. I’m looking for a little understanding from you. I think it’s no secret that all you guys were at the top of the Smith world, and all “together”. However you’d like to word it. You don’t think it’s odd that in Smith, maybe the best 4 teams in the entire world are you 4? 4 they are connected, doing the same thing that no one else is doing? Do you really feel like you guys are the 4 best coaches in HD and that’s not a coincidence? (I’m really asking. Not being a jerk. If you feel that way, then why aren’t you the 4 best in all other worlds? Another coincidence?). You don’t find it odd that shoe has publicly questioned what’s going on in that A10? Or Mully left HD entirely because something is different about the A10? You don’t think it’s odd that I’m ‘decent’ everywhere else in HD but where I’m right next to you guys, I can’t even get an A+ team up to par after like 10-12 seasons? (Wow reading that one out loud, I’m terrible!)? You don’t find it odd that everyone else in the room thinks similar things, and then when a loophole is discovered, the ONLY people doing it are the 4 of you? THAT’S ODD.

I’m not actually debating how good or bad you guys are. I know you’re very good. And I’m not looking at IF you feel you were allowed to do it. I don’t care about that. I’m talking about the actual action of the ‘trick’ you were doing, that only 4 of you were doing. If I was in a conference (or a household) and there were only 4 of us doing the senior redshirt (as an example), and we were the best 4 teams in a given world, my guilt would say “geez guys, something about this is ridiculously powerful. And we look odd right now”. There’s NO WAY I could have the mindset of “welp it’s in the game and no one else figured it out, that’s on the other 300 coaches in this world, not us”. Play basketball! Don’t do weird stuff. Don’t try to find something new that others don’t know. Just play normal.

sorry Gil, I wrote one as long as yours!

Damn. Top makes some good points here.

That’s true. I don’t dispute people got screwed over by the old CS. Old CS, the floor is yours if you’re out there. Btw, bc swensky did not let customer service know, I am not as passionate about opposing him being dropped. You guys have convinced me that someone should have alerted customer service. All of these guys besides swensky, beyond any bit of reasonable doubt, knew that customer service knew about this glitch. Btw I knew who none of these people were until this hot fresh scandal.

*Everyone* here is a victim here to the previous Customer Support. Current CS for having to clean up a mess that they did not make. PREVIOUS CS WAS EVEN ALERTED BY THE “KOLLUSION KREW” and had a chance to fix their mess and they didn’t!!!!! The users who decided not to go after recruits are victims for sure, because they saw that the witches had already offered them a scholarship. I have sympathy for everyone here. Everybody got screwed. Many more than others. And this is probably messing with everyone involved’s mental health. CS, the users who lost out in recruiting, the users who got kicked and blamed and spit on (and reinstated - thank you for that). All love to everyone.

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 7:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cimmy426 on 11/3/2022 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 11/3/2022 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 3:49:00 PM (view original):
I think robinhood410 has made me feel great about the circumstances with his words. I’m all for him returning. Based off what I see in the discord. But I feel like cimmy is still combative and I’m not as much on board with him as I am Robinhood. I know they are of the same bunch. But they are reacting totally different to the situation. And that’s fine.

just throwing my thoughts out there

people tend not to react well to being called a cheater, yelled at, berated, etc... i know you and i don't see eye to eye on this, but i have found more success personally winning hearts and minds with calm discourse than confrontation.

i agree that this situation here was too serious to handle offline between coaches, without involving CS. i'm not saying we should have done that here, at all. but one should only expect a cimmy-style reaction to come with the territory. i suspect he will come around some in time, when emotions have cooled. that is one more problem with the pitchfork style you encourage. it doesn't give time for emotions to cool and for heads to level.

If you don’t think I’m being more fair then I normally am, you’re not reading. You’re right that you and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things (but honestly that’s more for the show than anything). I’m being VERY open minded about this. I put myself in their shoes……
1) i get ****** back at first
2) I think about it a bit more
3) I listen
4) I view what dozens of others had to say
5) I make a judgement.

in this case I’d feel like, ok I get it. I see why the community is mad. I’d like to apologize, explain, and ask for forgiveness somewhat. Do I owe that to anyone? Of course not. But you guys are my gaming peers and you’re throwing fire at me. I now see why.

next step is to let others know that I get it.

cimmy is not on that at all. He’s still being defensive. So is the entire community wrong? Is CS wrong? Or is 2-5 people wrong? You tell me. From there, if one doesn’t know what to do and how to act, I don’t know what to tell ya.

if a Top-style answer comes with a pitchfork as some of you say, the fact that I can say ‘my bad’ guys if I screw up, should hold a LOT of weight with the community. Be human. Admit wrong. Move forward. Doogan’s post about ‘I disagree it was a big advantage’. Get real. We’ve documented 1000 reasons why it IS compared to his ONE that it isn’t. OWN UP, and it all ends. But the problem is, those who don’t, can’t fake it. They really can’t grasp why it’s an issue. And that’s fine. But they won’t get much love from us if they feel that way

Would you admit wrong if you didn't feel like you were wrong? I honestly don't think robinhood thinks it was wrong either, but he's a people pleaser, and the mob needs a sacrifice, so he's ready and willing. All 3 of us have truly been very open and honest with our statements about all of this, even as the accusations drifted from hacking the website for unlimited APs to being the same people to hiding that we know each other to colluding and hiding secrets from people to whatever the other outlandish things were. If you choose not to believe us, that's obviously your prerogative. If you choose to believe us and disagree, that's cool too. If you want to hate us and/or attribute all of our successes at this game to this one thing, go ahead. It's just wild how this whole thing went down.

It’s very rare for me that in a circumstance like this, where I see dozens of others freaking out, to not stop and think about things, and view thru their eyes. I just don’t see how you can actually feel that you weren’t wrong in any way shape or form. It does happen but it’s rare when 1 person is right and the other 99 are wrong. And after hearing all parties, I just don’t see a way to stand your ground THIS much, in your situation. I’d clearly see how I affected others. Doesn’t mean That you cheated us so bad that we all lost hundreds of dollars. But your decisions caused an impact. You just choose not to see it I am assuming

and again to be clear, I’m not pitchforking. I don’t think you’ve been ‘rude’ which I appreciate. And I’m glad you’re communicating with us. And in this case I’m not screaming out loud. I’m trying to be reasonable. If it’s life or death situation, I can tell you’re the type of guy I’d pal up with and we’d conquer the task at hand. But in a “game”, with people of all sorts and incomes of all sorts, I can’t paint a scenario where I don’t feel it’s wrong.

Definitely don’t hate you. I’m looking for a little understanding from you. I think it’s no secret that all you guys were at the top of the Smith world, and all “together”. However you’d like to word it. You don’t think it’s odd that in Smith, maybe the best 4 teams in the entire world are you 4? 4 they are connected, doing the same thing that no one else is doing? Do you really feel like you guys are the 4 best coaches in HD and that’s not a coincidence? (I’m really asking. Not being a jerk. If you feel that way, then why aren’t you the 4 best in all other worlds? Another coincidence?). You don’t find it odd that shoe has publicly questioned what’s going on in that A10? Or Mully left HD entirely because something is different about the A10? You don’t think it’s odd that I’m ‘decent’ everywhere else in HD but where I’m right next to you guys, I can’t even get an A+ team up to par after like 10-12 seasons? (Wow reading that one out loud, I’m terrible!)? You don’t find it odd that everyone else in the room thinks similar things, and then when a loophole is discovered, the ONLY people doing it are the 4 of you? THAT’S ODD.

I’m not actually debating how good or bad you guys are. I know you’re very good. And I’m not looking at IF you feel you were allowed to do it. I don’t care about that. I’m talking about the actual action of the ‘trick’ you were doing, that only 4 of you were doing. If I was in a conference (or a household) and there were only 4 of us doing the senior redshirt (as an example), and we were the best 4 teams in a given world, my guilt would say “geez guys, something about this is ridiculously powerful. And we look odd right now”. There’s NO WAY I could have the mindset of “welp it’s in the game and no one else figured it out, that’s on the other 300 coaches in this world, not us”. Play basketball! Don’t do weird stuff. Don’t try to find something new that others don’t know. Just play normal.

sorry Gil, I wrote one as long as yours!

Exactly how I feel. Thanks for writing this out Top.

Posted by zemedlin on 11/3/2022 7:43:00 PM (view original):
That’s true. I don’t dispute people got screwed over by the old CS. Old CS, the floor is yours if you’re out there. Btw, bc swensky did not let customer service know, I am not as passionate about opposing him being dropped. You guys have convinced me that someone should have alerted customer service. All of these guys besides swensky, beyond any bit of reasonable doubt, knew that customer service knew about this glitch. Btw I knew who none of these people were until this hot fresh scandal.

It feels like you're intentionally glossing over one big point that Chris (current CS) made in his post on Benis' thread. Yes, old CS was notified after a recruiting session was over but Chris stated once recruiting ends they cannot go back and see recruiting actions and how they impacted a recruit's decision. So old CS asked the users to report the glitch if they noticed it again and the users *chose* not to, knowing it gave them an advantage in recruiting (which was confirmed by old CS). Was your expectation old CS monitor every single recruiting action by every single coach to find the glitch?

As others have stated, they've gone to CS when glitches were found. The users in question knew about the glitch, reported the glitch, and were asked to report it if they noticed it again so CS could investigate in real time. But the users chose not to and are now facing the consequences.

Maybe I'm misconstruing the tone of your posts but it feels like you're putting 99% of the blame on the old CS group and 1% on those who exploited the glitch.

I will say the fact the over 100 users did this 4-5 times in the last 10 months, one of the users doing it 14x doesn’t seem egregious - considering it was over various seasons and multiple teams in multiple worlds.

There is no way I can justify 600x and he truly was gaming the system so I think that punishment fit.

I can tell you I did this once in either D3 or D2 and I’m pretty sure I was penalized -1700 AP points so I never did it again. That dude never even looked at me ever again ??

I think CS did the right think with what they had and I’m glad they patched this issue and made it more realistic.

Darnoc, appreciate your input. A few thoughts

“Maybe I'm misconstruing the tone of your posts but it feels like you're putting 99% of the blame on the old CS group and 1% on those who exploited the glitch.”

nope. Spot on. And only one user was told not to, if I’m not mistaken. Can’t assume that that messenger then told their buddies they shouldn’t be doing it. The response message from old CS that was sent to that user seemed a very chill response, but it is hard to read into tone of messages over text. Want to blame the person who submitted the ticket/got that weak response from them with a “let us know if you see it again” sprinkled on and then didn’t follow up with CS? Okay, that’s fine. But even then we wouldn’t know that the person who received this message, didn’t just tell their family members “hey I submitted a ticket for this. They know about the glitch.”

*I want to make it very clear I am saddened for the so many people as well who were screwed over against the inform of NON redshirt tool because of different tools discovered by their opponents in recruiting* I myself thought that it was very weird that you had to “inform of redshirt” one cycle in order to for it to show up “inform of non redshirt show up in the next.” I had where it seemed like it helped once. Was burned by it a couple other times. Which adds up w the transparent math from Cobb. So then I thought maybe the time I got a positive result was similar to promised minutes, it’s been confirmed that this was not the intended use. I just never was as smart as these guys to use it instead of AP.

“Yes, old CS was notified after a recruiting session was over but Chris stated once recruiting ends they cannot go back and see recruiting actions and how they impacted a recruit's decision”

then how’d they see that buddy abused it 660 times in 2022 or whatever it was?

I mentioned this before... this message from CS doesn't tell us as much as it appears. CS doesn't play HD and they don't really have the understanding of the game to see how things could be exploited. Seble worked on this freaking game for years and STILL didn't understand how many things in HD worked.

And in this case, even Cimmy didn't really fully grasp how this thing could be used to gain an unfair advantage. I'm sure it was much later that Cimmy realized, hmm yeah this could work like xyz. CS never even TRIED to think of that. Because, why would they?

Cimmy should have sent another ticket saying "Yeah I confirmed you can do this and someone could abuse it by doing xyz". But. that didn't happen.

I’ve asked other users in the past, is it supposed to be worded how it is? The long version of the recruiting action said (idk after the patch) inform recruit of plans not to redshirt” … it didn’t even say “withdraw plans to redshirt” I eventually came to, “there’s no way, it’s gotta be a “they know they aren’t getting a redshirt anymore” button. So there’s a positive, you just have to get past the “That’s weird that you have to take the risk of informing first. But I guess it makes sense”. I’m glad I didn’t realize sooner that you could get this credit without using up any AP . Cause I’d have got the steel toed boot. All love to everyone

I remember a couple years ago when the renewal loophole was discovered by th0nlyis. He sent a ticket to seble explaining how this could be abused and people could cheat.

It took 3 messages for seble to even GET IT. He showed me the messages. Seble was clueless. You gotta understand that we understand this game way more than CS usually because we've been playing HD for years. They have other jobs to do besides play HD. We need to help them understand.

Yeah, that’s true. I should tone down my blaming hardly anyone in this unfortunate situation.

I agree that we’re all affected by this. Not in a way that’s so big that we’ll never recover. But it just has a domino effect that maybe dime don’t even realize. Hopefully we can move on now so this thread doesn’t get out of wack too.

As for my previous post, Thanks for the couple of shout outs, but man I’m glad you guys could read it. I read it again and thought a 10 year old wrote it! But at least most of you got the point. My text thumb couldn’t keep up with my brain at all!

let’s move in from the cloud that’s hanging over us! Find a way to get the band back together and get the community back on track.

random trivia to change the subject….. 1990 World Series, the Reds beat the A’s. Who caught the foul fly ball to end the Series? And for bonus points, who was the A’s batter that popped out in that final at bat?

Topdogg in his 7:28pm post hit on all great points that i agree with and summed up my thoughts. Thanks.

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 9:39:00 PM (view original):
I agree that we’re all affected by this. Not in a way that’s so big that we’ll never recover. But it just has a domino effect that maybe dime don’t even realize. Hopefully we can move on now so this thread doesn’t get out of wack too.

As for my previous post, Thanks for the couple of shout outs, but man I’m glad you guys could read it. I read it again and thought a 10 year old wrote it! But at least most of you got the point. My text thumb couldn’t keep up with my brain at all!

let’s move in from the cloud that’s hanging over us! Find a way to get the band back together and get the community back on track.

random trivia to change the subject….. 1990 World Series, the Reds beat the A’s. Who caught the foul fly ball to end the Series? And for bonus points, who was the A’s batter that popped out in that final at bat?

"TB", our former Red Sox switch hitter, caught the foul pop. I think he came over for Nick Esasky? i dont want to give the answer in case someone else wants to guess.

Carney Lansford to Todd Benzinger