Posted by ncmusician_7 on 11/6/2022 2:27:00 PM (view original):
A formula that results in a subjective value and/or rankings (such as an appraisal of real estate) is an opinion. You, me, whomever came up with the baseball-ish formula (WAR) you referenced, anyone else, etc can make a formula to place a value on a player.

Name	PPG	RPG	APG	TS%	Finals MVP
Shaq	23.7	10.9	2.5	58.6%	3
Dirk	20.7	7.5	2.4	57.7%	1

Posted by samuelyork93 on 11/7/2022 12:07:00 AM (view original):
If yall havent already you should check out the thinking basketball podcasts/youtube channel. He has done multiple analysis on scoring value alone and the analysis I am posting values Dirks scoring value just above Shaq's when looking at their peak playoff years.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/qtkwy6/ben_taylorthinking_basketball_top_scorers_in_nba/

BUT scoring is just one aspect of the game

4) 2000-2002 Shaquille O'Neal: 31.5 PPG, +7.5 rTS

Pros: Historic volume paired with elite efficiency and thrives in the ScoreVal metric, is utterly unstoppable in the post, is a mismatch with every player on the court, almost always takes the most efficient shots in the paint, can cause frontcourts to foul out, is almost unguardable.

Cons: Some of the efficiency can be attributed to putbacks which can be considered as inflation, limits spacing and 5 out offenses, free throws heavily limit his efficiency, limited shot selection variety.

.

3) 2009-2011 Dirk Nowitzki: 30 PPG, +10 rTS

Pros: All time volume and all time efficiency, incredible shooter, incredible finisher, elite off ball and can finish coming off 3s, great at catch and shoot 3s, projects to be incredibly scalable, would be able to increase either efficiency or volume without losing too much of the other attribute, great strength, very mobile, an incredible fadeaway, elite variety of moves such as a mid post shot, step back shot, face up scoring, up fakes, 3 level scoring.

Cons: Not explosive which can be an issue because of the size, could often be slowed by double teams.

Posted by savoybg on 11/24/2022 4:13:00 PM (view original):
I sent my rankings to Basketball-Reference, suggesting that they add something like that to the site like they have JAWS rankings for Baseball. Got a nice email back just now.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your message. We'll bear this in mind should we think about creating a JAWS-like stat for basketball in the future. Any stat with Kareem, Wilt, Jordan and LeBron towards the top is probably doing something right!

Best,
Aldan

Aidan Jackson-Evans
Customer Success Coordinator
Sports Reference, LLC.

Posted by benhoidal on 11/24/2022 4:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 11/24/2022 4:13:00 PM (view original):
I sent my rankings to Basketball-Reference, suggesting that they add something like that to the site like they have JAWS rankings for Baseball. Got a nice email back just now.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your message. We'll bear this in mind should we think about creating a JAWS-like stat for basketball in the future. Any stat with Kareem, Wilt, Jordan and LeBron towards the top is probably doing something right!

Best,
Aldan

Aidan Jackson-Evans
Customer Success Coordinator
Sports Reference, LLC.

Seems unlikely that he spelt his name wrong.

Posted by savoybg on 11/24/2022 5:28:00 PM (view original):
I sent my rankings to Basketball-Reference, suggesting that they add something like that to the site like they have JAWS rankings for Baseball. Got a nice email back just now.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your message. We'll bear this in mind should we think about creating a JAWS-like stat for basketball in the future. Any stat with Kareem, Wilt, Jordan and LeBron towards the top is probably doing something right!

Best,
Aidan

Aidan Jackson-Evans
Customer Success Coordinator
Sports Reference, LLC.

Posted by PBandJ on 12/10/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 11/24/2022 5:28:00 PM (view original):
I sent my rankings to Basketball-Reference, suggesting that they add something like that to the site like they have JAWS rankings for Baseball. Got a nice email back just now.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your message. We'll bear this in mind should we think about creating a JAWS-like stat for basketball in the future. Any stat with Kareem, Wilt, Jordan and LeBron towards the top is probably doing something right!

Best,
Aidan

Aidan Jackson-Evans
Customer Success Coordinator
Sports Reference, LLC.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your post. I'll bear in mind, that at any time I look at a stat like this and any stat that does not have Olajuwon within the top 15 players in NBA history is probably doing something wrong.

Best,
Eric

Eric Michael Malone
Customer
What If Sports

Posted by savoybg on 12/11/2022 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by PBandJ on 12/10/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 11/24/2022 5:28:00 PM (view original):
I sent my rankings to Basketball-Reference, suggesting that they add something like that to the site like they have JAWS rankings for Baseball. Got a nice email back just now.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your message. We'll bear this in mind should we think about creating a JAWS-like stat for basketball in the future. Any stat with Kareem, Wilt, Jordan and LeBron towards the top is probably doing something right!

Best,
Aidan

Aidan Jackson-Evans
Customer Success Coordinator
Sports Reference, LLC.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your post. I'll bear in mind, that at any time I look at a stat like this and any stat that does not have Olajuwon within the top 15 players in NBA history is probably doing something wrong.

Best,
Eric

Eric Michael Malone
Customer
What If Sports

No, Eric, your presumption that Olajuwon is in the top 15 is what's wrong. He only reached 12 or more win shares 3 times, and his career was not consistent. He had 4 years in a row of 10+ win shares, and then fell to 8.6 and 9.8 at age 28 and 29, (missing some games) then back to have his best 2 seasons in 1993 and 1994. He was not great anymore after 1997 when he turned 35 the next season.

He only had a win shares/48 of .200 or higher 3 times with a career of .177. Not good enough to be top 15 all time.

His career WS/48 is only 50th of all time. He's below Kevin Johnson, Sharman, Bailey Howell, Sam Jones, Ginobli, Dantley, Moncrief, Butler and Ming. His playoffs WS/48 is much better where he's 20th of all time, but still nowhere near the top 15 players ever. Sorry.

Rank	Player	WS/48
1.	Michael Jordan*	.2505
2.	David Robinson*	.2502
3.	Wilt Chamberlain*	.2480
4.	Neil Johnston*	.2413
5.	Nikola Jokic	.2411
6.	Chris Paul	.2387
7.	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*	.2284
8.	LeBron James	.2279
9.	Rudy Gobert	.2256
10.	Magic Johnson*	.2249
11.	Kawhi Leonard	.2199
12.	James Harden	.2196
13.	Charles Barkley*	.2163
14.	Kevin Durant	.2156
15.	Jerry West*	.2134
Rank	Player	WS/48
16.	Anthony Davis	.2132
17.	Bob Pettit*	.2128
18.	Tim Duncan*	.2091
19.	John Stockton*	.2087
20.	Shaquille O'Neal*	.2081
21.	Oscar Robertson*	.2069
22.	Karl Malone*	.2053
23.	Stephen Curry	.2042
24.	Larry Bird*	.2032
25.	Yao Ming*	.2001
26.	Jimmy Butler	.1976
27.	Giannis Antetokounmpo	.1972
28.	Ed Macauley*	.1964
29.	Artis Gilmore*	.1931
30.	Dirk Nowitzki	.1928
Rank	Player	WS/48
31.	Bill Russell*	.1927
32.	Julius Erving*	.1922
33.	Dolph Schayes*	.1922
34.	Karl-Anthony Towns	.1907
35.	Manu Ginóbili*	.1902
36.	Adrian Dantley*	.1887
37.	Sidney Moncrief*	.1873
38.	Paul Arizin*	.1833
39.	Sam Jones*	.1824
40.	Harry Gallatin*	.1824
41.	Kevin Garnett*	.1822
42.	Dan Issel*	.1813
43.	Kevin McHale*	.1802
44.	Bailey Howell*	.1799
45.	Bill Sharman*	.1782
Rank	Player	WS/48
46.	George Yardley*	.1780
47.	Jonas Valanciunas	.1778
48.	Clyde Lovellette*	.1777
49.	Kevin Johnson	.1777
50.	Hakeem Olajuwon*	.1767

..
He only had 2 regular seasons where he was as good as a top 15 player would have to be. Early on he was very foul prone, averaging over 4 fouls per game in the 1980s.

You can't be top 15 all time if your career regular season level of play (WS/48) is only 50th best. David Robinson was a far better player, second all time in WS/48 after Jordan.

Posted by samuelyork93 on 12/12/2022 8:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 12/11/2022 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by PBandJ on 12/10/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 11/24/2022 5:28:00 PM (view original):
I sent my rankings to Basketball-Reference, suggesting that they add something like that to the site like they have JAWS rankings for Baseball. Got a nice email back just now.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your message. We'll bear this in mind should we think about creating a JAWS-like stat for basketball in the future. Any stat with Kareem, Wilt, Jordan and LeBron towards the top is probably doing something right!

Best,
Aidan

Aidan Jackson-Evans
Customer Success Coordinator
Sports Reference, LLC.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for sharing your formula and rankings for those players, and sorry for the delay in responding to your post. I'll bear in mind, that at any time I look at a stat like this and any stat that does not have Olajuwon within the top 15 players in NBA history is probably doing something wrong.

Best,
Eric

Eric Michael Malone
Customer
What If Sports

No, Eric, your presumption that Olajuwon is in the top 15 is what's wrong. He only reached 12 or more win shares 3 times, and his career was not consistent. He had 4 years in a row of 10+ win shares, and then fell to 8.6 and 9.8 at age 28 and 29, (missing some games) then back to have his best 2 seasons in 1993 and 1994. He was not great anymore after 1997 when he turned 35 the next season.

He only had a win shares/48 of .200 or higher 3 times with a career of .177. Not good enough to be top 15 all time.

His career WS/48 is only 50th of all time. He's below Kevin Johnson, Sharman, Bailey Howell, Sam Jones, Ginobli, Dantley, Moncrief, Butler and Ming. His playoffs WS/48 is much better where he's 20th of all time, but still nowhere near the top 15 players ever. Sorry.

Rank	Player	WS/48
1.	Michael Jordan*	.2505
2.	David Robinson*	.2502
3.	Wilt Chamberlain*	.2480
4.	Neil Johnston*	.2413
5.	Nikola Jokic	.2411
6.	Chris Paul	.2387
7.	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*	.2284
8.	LeBron James	.2279
9.	Rudy Gobert	.2256
10.	Magic Johnson*	.2249
11.	Kawhi Leonard	.2199
12.	James Harden	.2196
13.	Charles Barkley*	.2163
14.	Kevin Durant	.2156
15.	Jerry West*	.2134
Rank	Player	WS/48
16.	Anthony Davis	.2132
17.	Bob Pettit*	.2128
18.	Tim Duncan*	.2091
19.	John Stockton*	.2087
20.	Shaquille O'Neal*	.2081
21.	Oscar Robertson*	.2069
22.	Karl Malone*	.2053
23.	Stephen Curry	.2042
24.	Larry Bird*	.2032
25.	Yao Ming*	.2001
26.	Jimmy Butler	.1976
27.	Giannis Antetokounmpo	.1972
28.	Ed Macauley*	.1964
29.	Artis Gilmore*	.1931
30.	Dirk Nowitzki	.1928
Rank	Player	WS/48
31.	Bill Russell*	.1927
32.	Julius Erving*	.1922
33.	Dolph Schayes*	.1922
34.	Karl-Anthony Towns	.1907
35.	Manu Ginóbili*	.1902
36.	Adrian Dantley*	.1887
37.	Sidney Moncrief*	.1873
38.	Paul Arizin*	.1833
39.	Sam Jones*	.1824
40.	Harry Gallatin*	.1824
41.	Kevin Garnett*	.1822
42.	Dan Issel*	.1813
43.	Kevin McHale*	.1802
44.	Bailey Howell*	.1799
45.	Bill Sharman*	.1782
Rank	Player	WS/48
46.	George Yardley*	.1780
47.	Jonas Valanciunas	.1778
48.	Clyde Lovellette*	.1777
49.	Kevin Johnson	.1777
50.	Hakeem Olajuwon*	.1767

..
He only had 2 regular seasons where he was as good as a top 15 player would have to be. Early on he was very foul prone, averaging over 4 fouls per game in the 1980s.

You can't be top 15 all time if your career regular season level of play (WS/48) is only 50th best. David Robinson was a far better player, second all time in WS/48 after Jordan.

You have to consider more than just the numbers and analytics when ranking players all time. Hakeem 100% is higher up on the all time list then the Admiral. Hakeem is 100% on the top 15 while Robinson is more in the top 25 if you ask me for one simple reason. Playoffs, the games that matter most.

Is the Admiral better than the regular season advanced based sim? For sure! BUT

David Robinson's regular season average WS per 48 is .250 but during the playoffs for his career that number dropped to to .199.
Now Hakeem, according to the WS per 48 stat got better during the post season going from .177 during the regular season to .189 during the playoffs.

Now I am not personally a fan of win shares as a stat to show how good a player was. I much prefer the PER and VORP stat which gives you, I think, I much better idea of how good a player was at all things on the floor.

Looking at career numbers again.
Robinson's PER for his career is 26.2
Hakeems PER for his career is 23.6

Admiral feasted during the regular season but struggled during the post season because during the playoffs you are playing the best teams against the best 90s centers.

So you see his PER drop off from that 26.2 for his career to 23 during the post season

The opposite is true for Hakeem. His PER against the best didn't just stay the same it improved from that 23.6 number to 25.7.

Posted by bagchucker3 on 12/12/2022 10:37:00 AM (view original):
big talkin man

yakkity sax

you'll be gone in a month

two tops

all your incorrect analysis