Posted by hypnotoad on 11/9/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):
Seemed to me like it had devolved into finding out what Spud was up to, etc. Way off topic.

Is it off topic? From my perspective, it's exactly on topic. The reason why they got the death penalty was, in large part, due to the outrage on the forum. Some have softened their stance when more information became available, and that's good, but the damage was done.

My biggest argument here is that this "exploit" is far from the first of its kind, as many veteran users have noted. Most, not all unfortunately, see at least some gray area. Here you have someone who is using the word "cheater" every other word, in an almost pathological manner, who was using multiple accounts and alt IDs! I would say you can't make this stuff up but I understand the human brain too well. We have many defense mechanisms at our disposal to make us feel better about ourselves. This is not to say all, most or even many who screamed "cheater" have, in fact, knowingly cheated in this game but "CoachSpud" doth protested too much and now we are privy to his earlier scandal. Honest question: Which is shadier, this redshirt exploit or having alt IDs?

Allow me to quote CS: "CS team gets at least a couple accusations of cheating a week. Including against some of the top players that were leading the charge against this “exploit” (likely because they are strong coaches that beat another team)...it might just be a mob coming for you next time before facts are established."

To be honest, I'm not worried about tools like spud, although I do think he should face serious punishment, if true. Because, if true, he's a CHEATER! I just won the D2 chip at Gannon in Allen and it felt weird. Robinhood is the only team to beat me this year (he did it twice) and this has just left a bad taste in my mouth. His conference mates are taking a serious hit here, too, and I'm considering leaving WIS, as well. Why were their D2 teams, preceding this period, scrubbed again?

Last point, I find it highly "sus", as my kids would say, that CS locked that thread. Makes sense that they wouldn't want all the other instances in which people have "cheated" in the past but were not given the death penalty to come to light - but it's not exactly ethical.

I dont think its the discussion of the situation which is why they closed the pinned topic - its just that what they are discussing wasnt the punishment itself anymore or the cause but other topics that might have been considered offshoots from the original intent of the post. I dunno - just my guess

Posted by dude48241 on 11/10/2022 3:06:00 PM (view original):
I dont think its the discussion of the situation which is why they closed the pinned topic - its just that what they are discussing wasnt the punishment itself anymore or the cause but other topics that might have been considered offshoots from the original intent of the post. I dunno - just my guess

You might be right, dude. If so, I'm glad I brought it back up in this one. Multiple accounts, alt IDs? That sounds pretty bad.

Pandora's box has been opened.

Posted by Benis on 11/9/2022 4:36:00 PM (view original):
For the record, I do think the penalty is severe but I respect the decision. I wanted them to do SOMETHING about Swenske and was pretty annoyed when it was brushed off. I would have been fine if the rosters were just nuked, for what it's worth.

But, like I mentioned before, I'm glad they took foul play seriously as this did impact many users (myself included). No one is going to agree on the punishment, thats the way it goes. But I hope that if something happens again, it will be taken seriously from the very beginning so the mob style isn't necessary.

Respectfully, benis, mob style is not necessary, regardless of how quickly CS acts.

You have seemed reasonable throughout and I don't blame you for the mob, but this is not justice IMO. Just like there are victimless crimes, there are victims of circumstances that do not include a malevolent actor. Even if you accept the premise that they should have known better, the punishment reeks of reactivity and isn't congruent with past punishments in similar situations. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that's the consensus. That fact alone speaks to the dangers of mob mentality because the mob is not necessarily reflective of the larger community - just of the most vocal and, in some cases, the most compromised.

Posted by almersk on 11/10/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/9/2022 4:36:00 PM (view original):
For the record, I do think the penalty is severe but I respect the decision. I wanted them to do SOMETHING about Swenske and was pretty annoyed when it was brushed off. I would have been fine if the rosters were just nuked, for what it's worth.

But, like I mentioned before, I'm glad they took foul play seriously as this did impact many users (myself included). No one is going to agree on the punishment, thats the way it goes. But I hope that if something happens again, it will be taken seriously from the very beginning so the mob style isn't necessary.

Respectfully, benis, mob style is not necessary, regardless of how quickly CS acts.

You have seemed reasonable throughout and I don't blame you for the mob, but this is not justice IMO. Just like there are victimless crimes, there are victims of circumstances that do not include a malevolent actor. Even if you accept the premise that they should have known better, the punishment reeks of reactivity and isn't congruent with past punishments in similar situations. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that's the consensus. That fact alone speaks to the dangers of mob mentality because the mob is not necessarily reflective of the larger community - just of the most vocal and, in some cases, the most compromised.

I'm with you, in general, but we need to be careful mixing up events here.

This didnt start with me gathering a mob to ban robinhood, doogan and others. I caught Swenske cheating. Not only that, he cheated against me during this very recruiting session. This was confirmed by CS and their response was "okay we'll work on getting the loophole fixed during the next update". Wtf? He's cheating against me RIGHT NOW and you're going to do NOTHING? Huh???

Did I know others were implicated? Nope, I had no idea.

Did I want CS to do something about Swenske. Hell yup.

Did I know posting the situation on the forums would influence CS to act against Swenske? Hell yup. But that is what should have happened in the first place and not a single person disagreed.

how many teams did swenske have with his 600 uses of this trick in 2022? I know Naismith had been Wake until a recent move....where else?

Posted by Benis on 11/10/2022 5:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by almersk on 11/10/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/9/2022 4:36:00 PM (view original):
For the record, I do think the penalty is severe but I respect the decision. I wanted them to do SOMETHING about Swenske and was pretty annoyed when it was brushed off. I would have been fine if the rosters were just nuked, for what it's worth.

But, like I mentioned before, I'm glad they took foul play seriously as this did impact many users (myself included). No one is going to agree on the punishment, thats the way it goes. But I hope that if something happens again, it will be taken seriously from the very beginning so the mob style isn't necessary.

Respectfully, benis, mob style is not necessary, regardless of how quickly CS acts.

You have seemed reasonable throughout and I don't blame you for the mob, but this is not justice IMO. Just like there are victimless crimes, there are victims of circumstances that do not include a malevolent actor. Even if you accept the premise that they should have known better, the punishment reeks of reactivity and isn't congruent with past punishments in similar situations. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that's the consensus. That fact alone speaks to the dangers of mob mentality because the mob is not necessarily reflective of the larger community - just of the most vocal and, in some cases, the most compromised.

I'm with you, in general, but we need to be careful mixing up events here.

This didnt start with me gathering a mob to ban robinhood, doogan and others. I caught Swenske cheating. Not only that, he cheated against me during this very recruiting session. This was confirmed by CS and their response was "okay we'll work on getting the loophole fixed during the next update". Wtf? He's cheating against me RIGHT NOW and you're going to do NOTHING? Huh???

Did I know others were implicated? Nope, I had no idea.

Did I want CS to do something about Swenske. Hell yup.

Did I know posting the situation on the forums would influence CS to act against Swenske? Hell yup. But that is what should have happened in the first place and not a single person disagreed.

yeah, let's not lose sight that benis was targeting swenske...and I don't think I have heard much sympathy around here for that dude.

It was WIS who chose to unmask others and WIS should take SOLE responsibility for that.

Posted by almersk on 11/10/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/9/2022 4:36:00 PM (view original):
For the record, I do think the penalty is severe but I respect the decision. I wanted them to do SOMETHING about Swenske and was pretty annoyed when it was brushed off. I would have been fine if the rosters were just nuked, for what it's worth.

But, like I mentioned before, I'm glad they took foul play seriously as this did impact many users (myself included). No one is going to agree on the punishment, thats the way it goes. But I hope that if something happens again, it will be taken seriously from the very beginning so the mob style isn't necessary.

Respectfully, benis, mob style is not necessary, regardless of how quickly CS acts.

You have seemed reasonable throughout and I don't blame you for the mob, but this is not justice IMO. Just like there are victimless crimes, there are victims of circumstances that do not include a malevolent actor. Even if you accept the premise that they should have known better, the punishment reeks of reactivity and isn't congruent with past punishments in similar situations. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that's the consensus. That fact alone speaks to the dangers of mob mentality because the mob is not necessarily reflective of the larger community - just of the most vocal and, in some cases, the most compromised.

I hear you, benis. That's why I said this: "I don't blame you for the mob". I really do not blame you for the mob. I can honestly say that, if I were you, I would be a bit defensive about that because, as I said, I think you've "seemed reasonable throughout". I was just responding to your implication that if CS doesn't act swiftly in the future then mob mentality may be needed. I don't think that's what you think but it is what you implied so I wanted to push back on that. I don't blame you at all. Swenske was a maniac with that thing. He never even showed his face afterwards. I can guarantee that that dude was nowhere near the positive community member that the other guys who got caught up in the net were. They weren't your target and your target appears to be a person of little integrity. Not sure you should be knighted haha, but I have no qualm with you, sir.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 11/10/2022 8:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/10/2022 5:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by almersk on 11/10/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/9/2022 4:36:00 PM (view original):
For the record, I do think the penalty is severe but I respect the decision. I wanted them to do SOMETHING about Swenske and was pretty annoyed when it was brushed off. I would have been fine if the rosters were just nuked, for what it's worth.

But, like I mentioned before, I'm glad they took foul play seriously as this did impact many users (myself included). No one is going to agree on the punishment, thats the way it goes. But I hope that if something happens again, it will be taken seriously from the very beginning so the mob style isn't necessary.

Respectfully, benis, mob style is not necessary, regardless of how quickly CS acts.

You have seemed reasonable throughout and I don't blame you for the mob, but this is not justice IMO. Just like there are victimless crimes, there are victims of circumstances that do not include a malevolent actor. Even if you accept the premise that they should have known better, the punishment reeks of reactivity and isn't congruent with past punishments in similar situations. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that's the consensus. That fact alone speaks to the dangers of mob mentality because the mob is not necessarily reflective of the larger community - just of the most vocal and, in some cases, the most compromised.

I'm with you, in general, but we need to be careful mixing up events here.

This didnt start with me gathering a mob to ban robinhood, doogan and others. I caught Swenske cheating. Not only that, he cheated against me during this very recruiting session. This was confirmed by CS and their response was "okay we'll work on getting the loophole fixed during the next update". Wtf? He's cheating against me RIGHT NOW and you're going to do NOTHING? Huh???

Did I know others were implicated? Nope, I had no idea.

Did I want CS to do something about Swenske. Hell yup.

Did I know posting the situation on the forums would influence CS to act against Swenske? Hell yup. But that is what should have happened in the first place and not a single person disagreed.

yeah, let's not lose sight that benis was targeting swenske...and I don't think I have heard much sympathy around here for that dude.

It was WIS who chose to unmask others and WIS should take SOLE responsibility for that.

Agreed, Miami.

Posted by almersk on 11/10/2022 9:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by almersk on 11/10/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/9/2022 4:36:00 PM (view original):
For the record, I do think the penalty is severe but I respect the decision. I wanted them to do SOMETHING about Swenske and was pretty annoyed when it was brushed off. I would have been fine if the rosters were just nuked, for what it's worth.

But, like I mentioned before, I'm glad they took foul play seriously as this did impact many users (myself included). No one is going to agree on the punishment, thats the way it goes. But I hope that if something happens again, it will be taken seriously from the very beginning so the mob style isn't necessary.

Respectfully, benis, mob style is not necessary, regardless of how quickly CS acts.

You have seemed reasonable throughout and I don't blame you for the mob, but this is not justice IMO. Just like there are victimless crimes, there are victims of circumstances that do not include a malevolent actor. Even if you accept the premise that they should have known better, the punishment reeks of reactivity and isn't congruent with past punishments in similar situations. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that's the consensus. That fact alone speaks to the dangers of mob mentality because the mob is not necessarily reflective of the larger community - just of the most vocal and, in some cases, the most compromised.

I hear you, benis. That's why I said this: "I don't blame you for the mob". I really do not blame you for the mob. I can honestly say that, if I were you, I would be a bit defensive about that because, as I said, I think you've "seemed reasonable throughout". I was just responding to your implication that if CS doesn't act swiftly in the future then mob mentality may be needed. I don't think that's what you think but it is what you implied so I wanted to push back on that. I don't blame you at all. Swenske was a maniac with that thing. He never even showed his face afterwards. I can guarantee that that dude was nowhere near the positive community member that the other guys who got caught up in the net were. They weren't your target and your target appears to be a person of little integrity. Not sure you should be knighted haha, but I have no qualm with you, sir.

Ah okay sorry, didn't mean to imply if WIS doesn't act swiftly we need mob. I meant that if WIS doesn't take foul play seriously (by not doing anything) then the community here needs to lend their voices to help influence the right changes to be made to protect the integrity of the game.

And maybe this is unfair to the current admins but we've dealt with way too much inaction over the years so we all may be overly sensitive to the issue.

Posted by hypnotoad on 11/9/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):
Seemed to me like it had devolved into finding out what Spud was up to, etc. Way off topic.

You got it.

Now here's a question to consider ... since I never cheated when I had an HD team, what could be the possible reason for a long-time HD coach to try to divert the conversation about actual cheating into a baseless personal attack on me or anyone? What does he have to worry about if people are talking about actual cheating? Why divert the conversation? Why? I have some thoughts on that.

I feel like if CS outed 5 unknown users or coaches that were not long term successful coaches, no one would skip a beat and we’d not even be discussing this. But since it is some long term members, some are bringing a personal element into it. Is that the right way to look at things? Is what we all have to ask ourselves

Posted by almersk on 11/10/2022 3:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dude48241 on 11/10/2022 3:06:00 PM (view original):
I dont think its the discussion of the situation which is why they closed the pinned topic - its just that what they are discussing wasnt the punishment itself anymore or the cause but other topics that might have been considered offshoots from the original intent of the post. I dunno - just my guess

You might be right, dude. If so, I'm glad I brought it back up in this one. Multiple accounts, alt IDs? That sounds pretty bad.

just FYI, in the early days with limited worlds and no potential or scouting, multiple IDs were common, public, and 100% above board. they have fallen out of favor as using them to cheat has become more and more possible as the game evolved. nowadays, this is discouraged.

most folks even from the old days avoid multiple teams in the same world, now. there are still some people here and there from the old days who might have had d1 resumes in some worlds on one id, and in other worlds with a different id, so they still have multiple active IDs, but there's no potential for issues unless its the same world. its also very possible to have 2 teams in a world (say, d1 california, d3 florida), without any bad effect, but that has gotten less and less common over time.

not to be naive, i'm sure there's a handful of bad actors with a secret accounts they use to scout for another, that sort of thing. i don't worry about this too much, because once i've scouted with my main team, there's not really *that* much value to be had scouting further away recruits on an alternate team to possibly have a bigger pool. and, it is clearly cheating, and i think most folks here try to play fair. the most common issues we have are folks who haven't really thought their actions through, IMO anyway.

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/11/2022 12:28:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hypnotoad on 11/9/2022 4:25:00 PM (view original):
Seemed to me like it had devolved into finding out what Spud was up to, etc. Way off topic.

You got it.

Now here's a question to consider ... since I never cheated when I had an HD team, what could be the possible reason for a long-time HD coach to try to divert the conversation about actual cheating into a baseless personal attack on me or anyone? What does he have to worry about if people are talking about actual cheating? Why divert the conversation? Why? I have some thoughts on that.

Why be coy now?