The 52 Draft League - Rosters/Commentary Topic

seapilots
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Bill Russell won 5 MVP awards Wilt Chamerlain won 4 MVP awards.
Sam Jones won 0 MVP awards.
Maybe the people who voted didn't realize Bill was just good not great
1/2/2023 2:49 PM
riftonapple
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I’d take Wilt all day long over Russell. Russell is Top 10 of all time but Wilt is Top 5.
1/2/2023 3:20 PM
PBandJ
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Posted by seapilots on 1/2/2023 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Bill Russell won 5 MVP awards Wilt Chamerlain won 4 MVP awards.
Sam Jones won 0 MVP awards.
Maybe the people who voted didn't realize Bill was just good not great
This comment made me laugh. I needed that today. I enjoyed the tongue-in-cheek remark.

I am not a Wilt guy. Wilt was often so enamored with his stats that it came at the cost of team chemistry and success. I have Russell at #3 all-time. I have Wilt at #8 and the 4th best center in history. I know it isn't a popular notion but he was one of the worst teammate's in league history (I mean he wasn't Rick Barry or Adrian Dantley, but he was bad) and that matters to me. The greatest player (which Wilt was) can do many things, but I feel that the team needs to know that all-time great would drag their own bodies over glass to win and as such they would do the same. In my top 20, most of those guys fit that classification. Wilt, Kobe, and maybe one or two others do not (however Kobe would have dragged himself over glass, but he would have dragged his team too if they didn't start to do it for themselves first...lol).
1/2/2023 3:40 PM
savoybg
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Posted by seapilots on 1/2/2023 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Bill Russell won 5 MVP awards Wilt Chamerlain won 4 MVP awards.
Sam Jones won 0 MVP awards.
Maybe the people who voted didn't realize Bill was just good not great
Whoever voted was just as stupid as the fans who think that one guy was the team. Look at all of the stupid MVP and CY Young choices in baseball 30-60 years ago. Before the modern metrics lots of these so called experts had their heads up their rear ends.

If you think that Russell was so great, why aren't you picking him much higher in these drafts?

I'll tell you why....because NUMBERS DON'T LIE, OR EMBELISH, OR GET EMOTIONAL, OR HAVE OPINIONS.

Russell never led the league in win shares, or in WS/48. His best season was 17.3 win shares and his best WS/48 was .238.

Wilt led the league in win shares 8 times, and in WS/48 in those same 8 seasons. His top win share season was 25.0, the same year that Russell has his career high with 17.3, in 1963-64. Same thing with WS/48, Wilt was .325 sand Russell was .238, also in 1963-64.

Eight times Wilt had more win shares than Russell's best season of 17.3, including Wilt's final season in 1972-73 when he had 18.2.
1/2/2023 4:21 PM
thomcat
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Have to disagree. Because he was so ball dominant through most of his career, how many win shares did he take away from his teammates? More importantly, how many potential championships?

1/2/2023 4:33 PM
PBandJ
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Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by seapilots on 1/2/2023 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Bill Russell won 5 MVP awards Wilt Chamerlain won 4 MVP awards.
Sam Jones won 0 MVP awards.
Maybe the people who voted didn't realize Bill was just good not great
Whoever voted was just as stupid as the fans who think that one guy was the team. Look at all of the stupid MVP and CY Young choices in baseball 30-60 years ago. Before the modern metrics lots of these so called experts had their heads up their rear ends.

If you think that Russell was so great, why aren't you picking him much higher in these drafts?

I'll tell you why....because NUMBERS DON'T LIE, OR EMBELISH, OR GET EMOTIONAL, OR HAVE OPINIONS.

Russell never led the league in win shares, or in WS/48. His best season was 17.3 win shares and his best WS/48 was .238.

Wilt led the league in win shares 8 times, and in WS/48 in those same 8 seasons. His top win share season was 25.0, the same year that Russell has his career high with 17.3, in 1963-64. Same thing with WS/48, Wilt was .325 sand Russell was .238, also in 1963-64.

Eight times Wilt had more win shares than Russell's best season of 17.3, including Wilt's final season in 1972-73 when he had 18.2.
I'm just going to answer your question:

We don't pick him higher because the sim doesn't account for intangibles. Based on your own logic you must feel that Kevin Durant is among the top 8 players to have ever played the game.

Clearly.
1/2/2023 4:37 PM
PBandJ
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Posted by thomcat on 1/2/2023 4:33:00 PM (view original):
Have to disagree. Because he was so ball dominant through most of his career, how many win shares did he take away from his teammates? More importantly, how many potential championships?

THIS!!!!
1/2/2023 4:38 PM
savoybg
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"Wilt was often so enamored with his stats that it came at the cost of team chemistry and success. "

Preposterous!

Wilt's teams were always much worse before he got there, and then they became really good to great teams. Then we he left they usually stunk again.

The Warriors were 32-40 before Wilt arrived. First year with Wilt they were 49-26.

The last full season with Wilt the Warriors were 48-32 and made the NBA Finals.

Wilt left the Warriors mid season in 64-65. They were 11-27 when he left. They went 6-36 the rest of the way.

Wilt joined the 76ers mid season 1964-65. They went 18-17 with Wilt. Before he got there they were 22-23.

The 76ers made the East Finals in the playoffs and lost a 7 game series to Boston when "Havlicek Stole The Ball." They lost game 7 by one point.

Wilt's final season on the 76ers was 1967-68. They went 62-20. The following season without Wilt they went 55-25. Team chemistry was better according to you, but they won 5 fewer games.

The year before Wilt came to the Lakers they were 52-30. The first year he was there they went 55-27. According to you he killed team chemistry....but they won 3 more games somehow.

His last year with the Lakers they went 60-22, and went to the NBA Finals again, 4th time in 5 seasons. The next year with Wilt retired they went 47-35.



1/2/2023 4:39 PM
seapilots
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Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by seapilots on 1/2/2023 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Bill Russell won 5 MVP awards Wilt Chamerlain won 4 MVP awards.
Sam Jones won 0 MVP awards.
Maybe the people who voted didn't realize Bill was just good not great
Whoever voted was just as stupid as the fans who think that one guy was the team. Look at all of the stupid MVP and CY Young choices in baseball 30-60 years ago. Before the modern metrics lots of these so called experts had their heads up their rear ends.

If you think that Russell was so great, why aren't you picking him much higher in these drafts?

I'll tell you why....because NUMBERS DON'T LIE, OR EMBELISH, OR GET EMOTIONAL, OR HAVE OPINIONS.

Russell never led the league in win shares, or in WS/48. His best season was 17.3 win shares and his best WS/48 was .238.

Wilt led the league in win shares 8 times, and in WS/48 in those same 8 seasons. His top win share season was 25.0, the same year that Russell has his career high with 17.3, in 1963-64. Same thing with WS/48, Wilt was .325 sand Russell was .238, also in 1963-64.

Eight times Wilt had more win shares than Russell's best season of 17.3, including Wilt's final season in 1972-73 when he had 18.2.
you've insulted an entire generations of fans, coaches, general managers and sports writers. not bad!
1/2/2023 4:41 PM
dakjd901
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Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 2:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Midge on 1/2/2023 2:17:00 PM (view original):
I'm not going to argue with you about it, but if you get the chance read the chapter Bill Simmons wrote about their rivalry in his basketball book.
I don't need Bill Simmons romanticizing it, the numbers tell the story just fine.
It’s not always about numbers. Sometimes if you are really good you make those around you better. So yes Russell had good teammates, but also maybe just maybe the guy that led the San Francisco State Dons to 2 college championships before leading the Celtics to 11 championships was a great leader that elevated the play of those around him. It’s why you don’t put Charles Barkley above Tim Duncan in your PF rankings historically even though his advanced stats are better. Sometimes it’s more than just numbers.
1/2/2023 4:45 PM
savoybg
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I have Kevin Durant # 20 of all time for his career before this season started, and #12 all time for peak. Since in this sim we use individual seasons rather than careers, Durant is 9th among players for having the best individual season of all time. Here are the top individual win share seasons of all time.

NBA/ABA Leaders

Rank Player WS Season
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.37 1971-72
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 24.98 1963-64
3. George Mikan* 23.43 1950-51
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 23.11 1961-62
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.31 1970-71
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 21.87 1966-67
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.86 1972-73
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 21.42 1965-66
9. Michael Jordan* 21.23 1987-88
10. George Mikan* 21.13 1949-50
11. Wilt Chamberlain* 20.94 1962-63
12. George Mikan* 20.86 1948-49
13. Oscar Robertson* 20.65 1963-64
14. Michael Jordan* 20.43 1995-96
15. Wilt Chamberlain* 20.38 1967-68
Rank Player WS Season
16. Michael Jordan* 20.30 1990-91
17. LeBron James 20.25 2008-09
18. David Robinson* 19.98 1993-94
19. Michael Jordan* 19.80 1988-89
20. Artis Gilmore* 19.79 1971-72
21. LeBron James 19.30 2012-13
22. Kevin Durant 19.22 2013-14


Take away the duplicate names, and Durant has the 9th best season ever after Kareem, Wilt, Mikan, Jordan, Oscar. LeBron, The Admiral, and Gilmore.

So yes, in a sim where we use individual seasons, Durant is a top 10 player all time.
1/2/2023 4:47 PM
steelers821
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Why didn’t you draft Mikan?
1/2/2023 4:54 PM
savoybg
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Posted by dakjd901 on 1/2/2023 4:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 2:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Midge on 1/2/2023 2:17:00 PM (view original):
I'm not going to argue with you about it, but if you get the chance read the chapter Bill Simmons wrote about their rivalry in his basketball book.
I don't need Bill Simmons romanticizing it, the numbers tell the story just fine.
It’s not always about numbers. Sometimes if you are really good you make those around you better. So yes Russell had good teammates, but also maybe just maybe the guy that led the San Francisco State Dons to 2 college championships before leading the Celtics to 11 championships was a great leader that elevated the play of those around him. It’s why you don’t put Charles Barkley above Tim Duncan in your PF rankings historically even though his advanced stats are better. Sometimes it’s more than just numbers.
It's very convenient how you guys who talk intangibles always automatically claim that they guy who you are for, with the lesser numbers, somehow had the intangibles over the guy with the lesser numbers.

Maybe the so called intangibles, if they even matter, FAVORED Wilt. How would you possibly know? The Celtics may just have won because the rest of the team was much better than the rest of any other team. Maybe Auerbach was that much better than the rest of the coaches.

And Barkley's advanced stats are not better than Duncan's. I have Duncan #7 all time, and Barkley #15 all time. Duncan had 29 more career win shares. Barkley's 7 best win share seasons are 3 win shares higher than Duncan's 7 best win share seasons, so perhaps Barkley as slightly better at his peak. For career playoff PER Duncan is at 24.28, Barkley is at 24.18. Duncan stayed a star longer than Barkley, whose body type was more conducive to breaking down sooner.

So they were very even at peaks, but Duncan stayed better longer. From 35 to 39 Duncan put up 36.4 win shares and even his final seasons his WS/.48 was .163.

Barkley from 35 to 39 Barkley put up 8.7 win shares in just 2 seasons in which he played a total of 62 games. His WS/48 his final season was just .148.

Duncan won his final championship in 2014 when he was 37 years old, Barkley was done at 36.
1/2/2023 5:00 PM
PBandJ
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Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 4:39:00 PM (view original):
"Wilt was often so enamored with his stats that it came at the cost of team chemistry and success. "

Preposterous!

Wilt's teams were always much worse before he got there, and then they became really good to great teams. Then we he left they usually stunk again.

The Warriors were 32-40 before Wilt arrived. First year with Wilt they were 49-26.

The last full season with Wilt the Warriors were 48-32 and made the NBA Finals.

Wilt left the Warriors mid season in 64-65. They were 11-27 when he left. They went 6-36 the rest of the way.

Wilt joined the 76ers mid season 1964-65. They went 18-17 with Wilt. Before he got there they were 22-23.

The 76ers made the East Finals in the playoffs and lost a 7 game series to Boston when "Havlicek Stole The Ball." They lost game 7 by one point.

Wilt's final season on the 76ers was 1967-68. They went 62-20. The following season without Wilt they went 55-25. Team chemistry was better according to you, but they won 5 fewer games.

The year before Wilt came to the Lakers they were 52-30. The first year he was there they went 55-27. According to you he killed team chemistry....but they won 3 more games somehow.

His last year with the Lakers they went 60-22, and went to the NBA Finals again, 4th time in 5 seasons. The next year with Wilt retired they went 47-35.



The Warriors were 11-33 (.250 winning percentage) when Wilt was traded midseason (which hardly ever happened, but the Warriors had to get rid of him because he had become such a distraction) the next season the Warriors were 35-45 (.438 winning percentage). The year after that the Warriors were in the Finals, which lost to Wilt's Sixers.

Of course it isn't like Wilt had any help on that Sixer team. I mean how many teams have five Hall of Famers all playing together?

The point, Wilt was terrible for team chemistry. It is well known at this point. However, Wilt had talent but could have been so much more if he could have put the needs of the team before his own needs. Leading the league in assists, never fouling out, 100 points....it was all part of Wilt's need to elevate himself. He was counting stats, Bill was counting his rings.
1/2/2023 5:00 PM
savoybg
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Posted by steelers821 on 1/2/2023 4:54:00 PM (view original):
Why didn’t you draft Mikan?
If What If normalized seasons properly, I would.
1/2/2023 5:01 PM
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