The 52 Draft League - Rosters/Commentary Topic

dakjd901
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anyways, sorry for feeding into a certain site member ruining another one of these eval threads. its getting exhausting at this point how many can be derailed.
1/2/2023 5:50 PM
dakjd901
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Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Do you guys also think that all of the non champions in baseball lacked "the intangibles," or does this only apply to basketball. None of these guys were champions.

Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Ken Griffey Jr (never even made the word series)
Barry Bonds
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Carl Yastrzemski
Mike Piazza
Mike Trout
Nap Lajoie
Rod Carew
Robin Roberts
Mike Mussina
Luke Ap[pling
Ferguson Jenkins
Robin Yount
a superstar can effect the outcome of a basketball game way more than a baseball player who can only play defense (pitching) or has 4-5 plays in a game.
1/2/2023 5:52 PM
dakjd901
Posts: 1305 (1)
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anyways, I don't care anymore. im tuning out of this forum. its not fun anymore.
1/2/2023 5:54 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3015 (0)
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Posted by dakjd901 on 1/2/2023 5:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 5:27:00 PM (view original):
dakjd901 posted:

"you obviously value stats over winning. I think you play to win the game."

Not at all. Individual players don't "win" games, teams do. When I assess teams I value winning. When I assess individual players, I assess the stats that lead to teams winning and losing.

You guys just ASSUME that the best player on each team is mainly responsible for which team wins. That's NOT how it is.

I played and officiated hundreds of games in my day where the team with the best player did not win. Many times the other team had 4 of the next 5 best players, and the one best player cannot quite overcome that.

Maravich was the best player in almost every college game he played in, but his team never even made the NCAA tournament. It wasn't from intangibles, or fear, or not being clutch, or any of that sportswriter BS that they use to try and humanize the game. There's only so much that one plauyer can do?

Do you think that Kansas lost the triple overtime NCAA final to UNC in 1957 because wilt didn't have the intangibles? Or was it that UNC had 3 guys on him at all times, and they UNC had 4 of the next 5 best players after Wilt?

If you guys want to buy into that BS about "clutch" and "They wanted it more" and "Intestinal fortitude" and "when the chips are down" and all that crap, I feel sorry for you.






you do know that Tim Duncan didn't have a top 75 player (by the nba rankings) next to him in 4 of his 5 championships right? how does that happen? there were many more talented teams than the spurs. how did they win? did the nba simulator break during games?
Who cares about the NBA rankings?

Have you ever seen their formula for that?

I have David Robinson, Tony Parker, Ginobli and Leonard all among the 100 greatest players ever. Duncan played with 4 other players who are top 100 all time in the NBA/ABA.


01. Kareem - 228.52 137.6
02. Wilt - 222.13 151.5
03. LeBron - 213.55 121.1
04. Jordan - 203.96 136.7
05. Mailman - 193.64 110.4
06. Nowitzki - 180.29 106.6
07. Duncan - 177.17 99.4
08. Chris Paul - 175.74 105.4
09. Oscar - 174.35 117.5
10. Stockton - 173.19 99.0
11. Admiral - 170.16 115.6
12. Garnett - 168.03 102.4
13. Shaq - 167.89 101.8
14. Gilmore - 164.84 107.3
15. Barkley - 163.89 102.2
16. Dr. J - 160.96 104.7
17. Moses - 157.55 92.8
18. Kobe - 155.62 93.7
19. West - 155.35 102.0
20. Durant - 154.34 104.9
21. Russell - 152.61 102.9
22. Magic- 151.85 102.0
23. Olajuwon - 150.08 96.9
24. Miller - 148.40
25. Harden - 147.74 101.2
26. Bird - 145.23 101.8
27. Schayes - 139.84 90.7
28. Pettit - 138.52 95.8
29. Issel - 138.40 89.1
30. Mikan - 137.19 108.7
31. Dwight Howard - 132.95
32. Paul Pierce - 132.35
33. Pau Gasol - 131.69
34. Payton - 131.13
35. Drexler - 129.80
36. Dantley - 129.74
37. Curry - 128.15 89.6
38. Ray Allen - 126.57
39. Parish - 126.02
40. Bellamy - 125.62
41. Wade - 124.88
42. Nash - 123.61
43. Ewing - 123.31
44. Frazier - 122.86
45. Barry - 122.25
46. Billups - 121.40
47. Pippen - 121.34
48. Havlicek - 121.02
49. Marion - 120.46
50. Kidd - 119.68
51. Arizin - 117.78
52. Lanier - 117.52
53. Gervin - 116.15
54. Vince Carter - 115.65
55. Dominique - 115.55
56. McHale - 115.23
57. Hayes - 114.96
58. Westbrook - 113.81
59. Chet Walker - 113.76
60. Bailey Howell - 113.24
61. Aldridge - 111.63
62. Baylor - 111.36
63. Mutombo - 110.53
64. McGrady - 109.74
65. Nance - 109.67
66. Greek Freak - 109.57
67. Horace Grant - 109.33
68. Beaty - 109.12
69. Ginobli - 107.63
70. Jokic - 107.61
71. Ed Macauley - 107.51
72. Brand - 107.42
73. Terry Porter - 107.15
74. Hornacek - 106.01
75. Bosh - 105.77
76. Johnston - 105.65
77. Unseld - 105.60
78. Lillard - 105.44
79. Buck Williams - 105.30
80. Iverson - 104.93
81. Sikma - 104.59
82. Schrempf - 104.02
83. Stoudemire - 103.71
84. Gobert - 103.56
85. Parker - 103.05
86. Kevin Johnson - 103.02
87. Carmelo - 102.99
88. Jimmy Butler - 102.93
89. McAdoo - 102.88
090. English - 101.81
091. Laimbeer - 101.33
092. Jerry Lucas - 101.26
093. Kawhi Leonard - 101.14
094. Lowry - 100.07
095. Cheeks - 99.50
096. DeAndre Jordan - 99.46
097. Rasheed - 99.37
098. Moncrief - 99.26
099. Thorpe - 98.90
100. Horford - 99.18
101. Shawn Kemp - 98.36
102. Anthony Davis - 98.10
103. Eddie Jones - 97.99
104. Hal Greer - 97.73
105. Grant Hill - 97.47
106. Chandler - 97.40
107. Sam Jones - 97.00
1/2/2023 5:56 PM
thomcat
Posts: 2935 (0)
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Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 5:27:00 PM (view original):
dakjd901 posted:

"you obviously value stats over winning. I think you play to win the game."

Not at all. Individual players don't "win" games, teams do. When I assess teams I value winning. When I assess individual players, I assess the stats that lead to teams winning and losing.

You guys just ASSUME that the best player on each team is mainly responsible for which team wins. That's NOT how it is.

I played and officiated hundreds of games in my day where the team with the best player did not win. Many times the other team had 4 of the next 5 best players, and the one best player cannot quite overcome that.

Maravich was the best player in almost every college game he played in, but his team never even made the NCAA tournament. It wasn't from intangibles, or fear, or not being clutch, or any of that sportswriter BS that they use to try and humanize the game. There's only so much that one plauyer can do?

Do you think that Kansas lost the triple overtime NCAA final to UNC in 1957 because wilt didn't have the intangibles? Or was it that UNC had 3 guys on him at all times, and they UNC had 4 of the next 5 best players after Wilt?

If you guys want to buy into that BS about "clutch" and "They wanted it more" and "Intestinal fortitude" and "when the chips are down" and all that crap, I feel sorry for you.






Savoy, Wilt won his 2 championships after 1965 when he became the "unWilt" and put up nowhere near the offensive numbers he did earlier in his career. Somehow when he became the unWilt, the players around him got better. Why would that be?
1/2/2023 6:13 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3015 (0)
All Star
10 30
Prospect
Here are my positional rankings with Russell's Celtics highlighted.

POINT GUARD
Chris Paul - 175.74
Oscar - 174.35
Stockton - 173.19
West - 155.35
Magic- 151.85
Payton - 131.13
Curry - 128.15
Nash - 123.61
Frazier - 122.86
Billups - 121.40
Kidd - 119.68
Westbrook - 113.81
Terry Porter - 107.15
Lillard - 105.44
Parker - 103.05
Kevin Johnson - 103.02
Lowry - 100.07
Cheeks - 99.50
Andre Miller - 96.03
Lenny Wilkins - 92.77
Cassell - 91.57
22. Cousy - 91.00

SHOOTING GUARD
Jordan - 203.96
Kobe - 155.62
Miller - 148.40
Harden - 147.74
Drexler - 129.80
Ray Allen - 126.57
Wade - 124.88
Gervin - 116.15
Vince Carter - 115.65
McGrady - 109.74
Ginobli - 107.63
Hornacek - 106.01
Iverson - 104.93
Moncrief - 99.26
Eddie Jones - 97.99
Greer - 97.73
17 - Sam Jones - 97.00
Jason Terry - 96.32
Hersey Hawkins - 93.90
20 - Bill Sharman - 90.30

SMALL FORWARD
LeBron - 213.55
Dr. J - 160.96
Durant - 154.34
Bird - 145.23
Paul Pierce - 132.35
Dantley - 129.74
Barry - 122.25
Pippen - 121.34
9. Havlicek - 121.02
Marion - 120.46

POWER FORWARD
Mailman - 193.64
Nowitzki - 180.29
Duncan - 177.17
Garnett - 168.03
Barkley - 163.89
Schayes - 139.84
Pettit - 138.52
Pau Gasol - 131.69
McHale - 115.23
Hayes - 114.96
11. Bailey Howell - 113.24
Aldridge - 111.63

CENTER
Kareem - 228.52
Wilt - 222.13
Admiral - 170.16
Shaq - 167.89
Gilmore - 164.84
Moses - 157.55
7. Russell - 152.61
Olajuwon - 150.08
Issel - 138.40
Mikan - 137.19
Dwight Howard - 132.95

So in 202, after all these years, Russell played with the 22nd best PG, the 17th and 20th best SGs, the 9th best SF, and the 11th best PF, but you guys want to attribute all the championships to Russell and only Russell's "intangibles." Seriously, isn't that silly?

And don't forget, these are their rankings like 50 years after they all were retired. Cousy was the PG of his era, and when he retied the only 2 guys who may have been considered better were both less than halfway through their careers, Oscar and West. When they were playing together Cousy would have been the best PG ever, Sharman the best SG until surpassed by Sa, Jones at some point. When Havlicek was playing he would have been considered a top 3 SF all time, with Baylor and Barry, and Dr. J coming up. Bailey Howell when playing with Russell would have been the 4th best PF ever after Schayes, Pettitt, and Lucas.

So Russell had a guy at each of the other 4 positions who was a top 5 player all time at that position while playing with Russell, but you guys think that the Celtics beat Wilt's teams because Russell had the intangibles over Wilt. Very silly.

And we did not even discuss Heinsohn, who was a top 10 all time PF as of his retirement.

Cousy - 12 times all league, 13 time all star
Sharman - 7 times all league, 8 time all star
Sam Jones - 3 times all league, 5 time all star
Havlicek - 11 times all league, 13 time all star
Howell - one time all league, 6 time all star
Heinsohn - 4 times all league, 6 times all star
Russell - 11 times all league, 12 time all star
1/2/2023 6:40 PM (edited)
savoybg
Posts: 3015 (0)
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10 30
Prospect
Posted by thomcat on 1/2/2023 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 5:27:00 PM (view original):
dakjd901 posted:

"you obviously value stats over winning. I think you play to win the game."

Not at all. Individual players don't "win" games, teams do. When I assess teams I value winning. When I assess individual players, I assess the stats that lead to teams winning and losing.

You guys just ASSUME that the best player on each team is mainly responsible for which team wins. That's NOT how it is.

I played and officiated hundreds of games in my day where the team with the best player did not win. Many times the other team had 4 of the next 5 best players, and the one best player cannot quite overcome that.

Maravich was the best player in almost every college game he played in, but his team never even made the NCAA tournament. It wasn't from intangibles, or fear, or not being clutch, or any of that sportswriter BS that they use to try and humanize the game. There's only so much that one plauyer can do?

Do you think that Kansas lost the triple overtime NCAA final to UNC in 1957 because wilt didn't have the intangibles? Or was it that UNC had 3 guys on him at all times, and they UNC had 4 of the next 5 best players after Wilt?

If you guys want to buy into that BS about "clutch" and "They wanted it more" and "Intestinal fortitude" and "when the chips are down" and all that crap, I feel sorry for you.






Savoy, Wilt won his 2 championships after 1965 when he became the "unWilt" and put up nowhere near the offensive numbers he did earlier in his career. Somehow when he became the unWilt, the players around him got better. Why would that be?
If that's even true, probably because they were jealous and stupid.

I say that he just got much better teammates when he left the Warriors. The 76ers had other great players. The Lakers had West who was great into the 70s. Baylor was not so great anymore by the time Wilt got to the Lakers. Baylor had 14.4 win shares in 1963, and then fell off the table, with half that total (7.2) in a full season the next year. Baylor was never great again after the 63 season when his WS/48 was .205.

after that he was .109, .078, .062, .109, .127, .133, .168, .032, .097.

He may have still made all star teams, but in his last 9 seasons he only played like an all star in one season, the .168 in 69-70. People blame the 69 finals loss on Wilt, but Baylor shot just .397 from the field in the series. Wilt was at 50%.
1/2/2023 6:39 PM (edited)
samuelyork93
Posts: 3026 (1)
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Not getting to all that but I actually put a lot of stock in those Russell MVPS of the 60 and 70s bc it was the players who voted on those not media people or whoever does it now. And I am wise enough to admit Im too dumb to know better about basketball than actual basketball players. Bill won 5 to Wilts 4 which is super close. But Russell in 1962 beat out Wilt, who scored 50 PPG, and the Big O, who averaged a triple double, for the MVP and I think that says a lot about how good Bill Russell actually was.
But opinions are like *****. We all have one, they usually stink, and its not right to go around changing them.
1/2/2023 6:41 PM
thomcat
Posts: 2935 (0)
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232
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Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 6:40:00 PM (view original):
Here are my positional rankings with Russell's Celtics highlighted.

POINT GUARD
Chris Paul - 175.74
Oscar - 174.35
Stockton - 173.19
West - 155.35
Magic- 151.85
Payton - 131.13
Curry - 128.15
Nash - 123.61
Frazier - 122.86
Billups - 121.40
Kidd - 119.68
Westbrook - 113.81
Terry Porter - 107.15
Lillard - 105.44
Parker - 103.05
Kevin Johnson - 103.02
Lowry - 100.07
Cheeks - 99.50
Andre Miller - 96.03
Lenny Wilkins - 92.77
Cassell - 91.57
22. Cousy - 91.00

SHOOTING GUARD
Jordan - 203.96
Kobe - 155.62
Miller - 148.40
Harden - 147.74
Drexler - 129.80
Ray Allen - 126.57
Wade - 124.88
Gervin - 116.15
Vince Carter - 115.65
McGrady - 109.74
Ginobli - 107.63
Hornacek - 106.01
Iverson - 104.93
Moncrief - 99.26
Eddie Jones - 97.99
Greer - 97.73
17 - Sam Jones - 97.00
Jason Terry - 96.32
Hersey Hawkins - 93.90
20 - Bill Sharman - 90.30

SMALL FORWARD
LeBron - 213.55
Dr. J - 160.96
Durant - 154.34
Bird - 145.23
Paul Pierce - 132.35
Dantley - 129.74
Barry - 122.25
Pippen - 121.34
9. Havlicek - 121.02
Marion - 120.46

POWER FORWARD
Mailman - 193.64
Nowitzki - 180.29
Duncan - 177.17
Garnett - 168.03
Barkley - 163.89
Schayes - 139.84
Pettit - 138.52
Pau Gasol - 131.69
McHale - 115.23
Hayes - 114.96
11. Bailey Howell - 113.24
Aldridge - 111.63

CENTER
Kareem - 228.52
Wilt - 222.13
Admiral - 170.16
Shaq - 167.89
Gilmore - 164.84
Moses - 157.55
7. Russell - 152.61
Olajuwon - 150.08
Issel - 138.40
Mikan - 137.19
Dwight Howard - 132.95

So in 202, after all these years, Russell played with the 22nd best PG, the 17th and 20th best SGs, the 9th best SF, and the 11th best PF, but you guys want to attribute all the championships to Russell and only Russell's "intangibles." Seriously, isn't that silly?

And don't forget, these are their rankings like 50 years after they all were retired. Cousy was the PG of his era, and when he retied the only 2 guys who may have been considered better were both less than halfway through their careers, Oscar and West. When they were playing together Cousy would have been the best PG ever, Sharman the best SG until surpassed by Sa, Jones at some point. When Havlicek was playing he would have been considered a top 3 SF all time, with Baylor and Barry, and Dr. J coming up. Bailey Howell when playing with Russell would have been the 4th best PF ever after Schayes, Pettitt, and Lucas.

So Russell had a guy at each of the other 4 positions who was a top 5 player all time at that position while playing with Russell, but you guys think that the Celtics beat Wilt's teams because Russell had the intangibles over Wilt. Very silly.

And we did not even discuss Heinsohn, who was a top 10 all time PF as of his retirement.

Cousy - 12 times all league, 13 time all star
Sharman - 7 times all league, 8 time all star
Sam Jones - 3 times all league, 5 time all star
Havlicek - 11 times all league, 13 time all star
Howell - one time all league, 6 time all star
Heinsohn - 4 times all league, 6 times all star
Russell - 11 times all league, 12 time all star
Do you think Cousy, Jones, Sharman, Havlicek and Howell would have had those rankings had they played with Celtic Wilt 59-66? The answer is a resounding NO.

If Russell had played with the Sixers you would be talking about how the other Sixers always outplayed the Celts.

Russell made the guys around him better, which is where is greatness lies. Not the case with Wilt.
1/2/2023 6:41 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3015 (0)
All Star
10 30
Prospect
Posted by thomcat on 1/2/2023 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 1/2/2023 5:27:00 PM (view original):
dakjd901 posted:

"you obviously value stats over winning. I think you play to win the game."

Not at all. Individual players don't "win" games, teams do. When I assess teams I value winning. When I assess individual players, I assess the stats that lead to teams winning and losing.

You guys just ASSUME that the best player on each team is mainly responsible for which team wins. That's NOT how it is.

I played and officiated hundreds of games in my day where the team with the best player did not win. Many times the other team had 4 of the next 5 best players, and the one best player cannot quite overcome that.

Maravich was the best player in almost every college game he played in, but his team never even made the NCAA tournament. It wasn't from intangibles, or fear, or not being clutch, or any of that sportswriter BS that they use to try and humanize the game. There's only so much that one plauyer can do?

Do you think that Kansas lost the triple overtime NCAA final to UNC in 1957 because wilt didn't have the intangibles? Or was it that UNC had 3 guys on him at all times, and they UNC had 4 of the next 5 best players after Wilt?

If you guys want to buy into that BS about "clutch" and "They wanted it more" and "Intestinal fortitude" and "when the chips are down" and all that crap, I feel sorry for you.






Savoy, Wilt won his 2 championships after 1965 when he became the "unWilt" and put up nowhere near the offensive numbers he did earlier in his career. Somehow when he became the unWilt, the players around him got better. Why would that be?
Yes, in 1965 Wilt's team lost by one point in game 7 of the Eastern Finals because Wilt scored too much. It was really selfish of Wilt to take so many shots. He took 22% of the team's FGA for the series (146 of 672). So what if he shot .555 from the field while the rest of the team was shooting .382 from the field.

If only he had taken 50 fewer shots and let his teammates take those 50 *****, they would have been so inspired by Wilt's unselfishness and leadership that they would have made 35 of those 50 shots, for 70%.

Wilt scored 211 points to just 109 points for Russell, who by the way shot just .447 from the field. Wilt even outshot Russell from the line in the series, .576 to .472.

Wilt outscored Russell by 102 points in the series while shooting far better from both the field and the free throw line. But your answer is, he needed to not score so much!

Wilt was +102 points over Russell, but the rest of the Celtics were + 122 points over the rest of the 76ers. That's clearly Wilt's fault.





1/2/2023 6:50 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3015 (0)
All Star
10 30
Prospect
thomcat posted:

Do you think Cousy, Jones, Sharman, Havlicek and Howell would have had those rankings had they played with Celtic Wilt 59-66? The answer is a resounding NO.

If Russell had played with the Sixers you would be talking about how the other Sixers always outplayed the Celts.

Russell made the guys around him better, which is where is greatness lies. Not the case with Wilt.

You've got your head SO FAR up your behind that I am surprised you can still breathe.

1/2/2023 6:52 PM
samuelyork93
Posts: 3026 (1)
Hall of Famer
534 4 1
Rookie
Yo dude savoy, why so hostile all de time. Chillax me bruddah
1/2/2023 6:59 PM
thomcat
Posts: 2935 (0)
Hall of Famer
232
Rookie
Posted by samuelyork93 on 1/2/2023 6:59:00 PM (view original):
Yo dude savoy, why so hostile all de time. Chillax me bruddah
Really.

Then again, hostility is savoy's white flag.
1/2/2023 7:27 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3015 (0)
All Star
10 30
Prospect
Posted by samuelyork93 on 1/2/2023 6:59:00 PM (view original):
Yo dude savoy, why so hostile all de time. Chillax me bruddah
No hostility, that's just how we talk around here in NJ. There would also be lots of other words, but the admins warned me about profanity recently. I'm still shocked that there are men here who object to profanity. Things must be very different in other parts of the country. This is Sopranos country. Junior's house is on the next street from mine, by the way.
1/2/2023 7:30 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3015 (0)
All Star
10 30
Prospect
Posted by thomcat on 1/2/2023 7:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by samuelyork93 on 1/2/2023 6:59:00 PM (view original):
Yo dude savoy, why so hostile all de time. Chillax me bruddah
Really.

Then again, hostility is savoy's white flag.
Not even close.

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists
1/2/2023 7:31 PM
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