I think it's a really interesting idea, and I like the real world parallel. Though I don't consider two hours to be nearly enough. If we're going to theoretically saddle owners who have done nothing wrong with a new monitoring responsibility, we should also be willing to implement a relatively large notice period. To me, anything less than six hours and an SM is being overly generous to the tanker.

But I had been thinking of something simpler. Instead of creating a legal avenue for a practice the league seems to (maybe? probably?) oppose, I'd suggest that we define and ban tanking. I'd be OK with this just applying to the playoffs, but we could include regular season as well.

I realize "define and ban" is easier said than done but tanking is usually clear when it occurs, since the owner only benefits from tanking through the extremeness of the action. I believe we could cover >95% of cases which are beneficial to the tanker with something like "Tanking is when at least four three of the best five players on one team play less than half of their min/82. Best player is defined by $/min, only players >500 total minutes. Exclusions include blowouts, foul trouble, and injured players." Then create a three or five person committee to rule on borderline cases when referred to the board. We could even say that strategies which run counter to the spirit of the rule are subject to the committee, if we wanted.

We could then include penalties such as forfeiting a game/player/series depending on how strict we want to get, and I'd be open to pretty strict if we communicated the new rule clearly. Because ideally we'd be deterring tanking from occurring at all.

I understand if that's not palatable to everyone, but to me it does seem implementable, and less ongoing work.

There is a lot of gray area there. Midge thinks Dave Cowens is good. Chewy things Ivica Zubac sucks. bds thinks Mo Cheeks is good.

Salary and minutes seem pretty evenly distributed across the pick numbers:

Row Labels	Sum of Min	Sum of Salary	Pick
Midge	15633	$37,435,200	3
ronsouth1	16132	$36,328,564	9
PBandJ	15282	$35,823,957	1
jhsukow	14659	$35,605,049	6
samuelyork93	15556	$35,483,542	21
riftonapple	14938	$34,810,440	22
jethroeg	15068	$33,987,031	12
mptrey	13662	$32,170,960	5
24kpyrite	13103	$31,424,400	14
steelers821	13648	$31,286,879	11
dh555	13010	$30,735,012	18
dmcclane	12869	$30,338,823	19
chewy3344	13127	$30,212,263	8
jcred5	13325	$30,147,017	17
robusk	12610	$29,822,821	13
Sephy13	12079	$29,617,283	10
raggedclaws	12246	$29,591,576	2
benhoidal	12512	$29,404,841	24
ty84moss	12377	$29,106,240	20
uptowngbv	12937	$28,903,349	23
berkelon	12374	$28,355,869	7
pexetera	11636	$27,845,689	4
albiband0	11767	$26,655,078	15
BenJoker	11177	$26,165,384	16

Posted by raggedclaws on 9/6/2023 3:05:00 PM (view original):
I think it's a really interesting idea, and I like the real world parallel. Though I don't consider two hours to be nearly enough. If we're going to theoretically saddle owners who have done nothing wrong with a new monitoring responsibility, we should also be willing to implement a relatively large notice period. To me, anything less than six hours and an SM is being overly generous to the tanker.

But I had been thinking of something simpler. Instead of creating a legal avenue for a practice the league seems to (maybe? probably?) oppose, I'd suggest that we define and ban tanking. I'd be OK with this just applying to the playoffs, but we could include regular season as well.

I realize "define and ban" is easier said than done but tanking is usually clear when it occurs, since the owner only benefits from tanking through the extremeness of the action. I believe we could cover >95% of cases which are beneficial to the tanker with something like "Tanking is when at least four three of the best five players on one team play less than half of their min/82. Best player is defined by $/min, only players >500 total minutes. Exclusions include blowouts, foul trouble, and injured players." Then create a three or five person committee to rule on borderline cases when referred to the board. We could even say that strategies which run counter to the spirit of the rule are subject to the committee, if we wanted.

We could then include penalties such as forfeiting a game/player/series depending on how strict we want to get, and I'd be open to pretty strict if we communicated the new rule clearly. Because ideally we'd be deterring tanking from occurring at all.

I understand if that's not palatable to everyone, but to me it does seem implementable, and less ongoing work.

SO I am not a fan of banning the player resting in any case, mainly because I think it would be hard to regulate and there is too much grey area on how much resting is too much. HOWEVER. IF we implemented this rule I would say it should only be for the post season.

My reasoning is a selfish one. There are times real life gets in the way and the sim is a fickle B****. Let me explain.
I may have my minutes set that if the sim FOLLOWED what I set that I wouldn't have stamina issues. BUT the sim does what the sim does and plays my starter, who I may have set for 20 minutes, 36 minutes, blowing his stamina all to hell. There are also times where I can't micromanage my teams at least once a day like I like and the issue further builds on itself. During the regular season I sometimes need to "rest" my starters to address these lapses in management.
Is this my problem? Absolutely, but I feel like I can't be the only one this happens too and to ban it completely, especially in the the regular season sends a lot of problematic red flags in my mind.

But I am just the guy trying not to be in last place haha

Based on my quick calculations, this is the minutes drafted by position for each team:

Selected By	RealPos	Sum of Min
24kpyrite	BIG	6137
	GUARD	6966
albiband0	BIG	2649
	FORWARD	1381
	GUARD	7737
benhoidal	BIG	4337
	GUARD	8175
BenJoker	BIG	3209
	GUARD	7968
berkelon	BIG	1904
	FORWARD	1414
	GUARD	9056
chewy3344	BIG	7042
	GUARD	6085
dh555	BIG	5452
	GUARD	7558
dmcclane	BIG	3900
	GUARD	8969
jcred5	FORWARD	3500
	GUARD	9825
jethroeg	BIG	2171
	FORWARD	2936
	GUARD	9961
jhsukow	BIG	3611
	GUARD	11048
Midge	BIG	3112
	FORWARD	2451
	GUARD	10070
mptrey	BIG	3081
	GUARD	10581
PBandJ	BIG	3280
	GUARD	12002
pexetera	BIG	1109
	FORWARD	3310
	GUARD	7217
raggedclaws	BIG	2450
	FORWARD	3307
	GUARD	6489
riftonapple	BIG	4408
	GUARD	10530
robusk	BIG	6664
	FORWARD	1279
	GUARD	4667
ronsouth1	BIG	2598
	GUARD	13534
samuelyork93	BIG	2736
	FORWARD	1913
	GUARD	10907
Sephy13	GUARD	12079
steelers821	BIG	2054
	FORWARD	990
	GUARD	10604
ty84moss	BIG	3437
	FORWARD	3526
	GUARD	5414
uptowngbv	BIG	4441
	GUARD	8496

People classified as FORWARD are generally people who I would play at SF only while BIG encompasses PF and C, even C exclusive players. If someone is SF/SG, they get classified as a GUARD. This uses a 98% positional cutoff.

Posted by robusk on 9/6/2023 4:35:00 PM (view original):
People classified as FORWARD are generally people who I would play at SF only while BIG encompasses PF and C, even C exclusive players. If someone is SF/SG, they get classified as a GUARD. This uses a 98% positional cutoff.

My guards are going to end up as bigs unfortunately lol.

Posted by robusk on 9/6/2023 3:18:00 PM (view original):
There is a lot of gray area there. Midge thinks Dave Cowens is good. Chewy things Ivica Zubac sucks. bds thinks Mo Cheeks is good.

There probably is more potential ambiguity in the regular season, and I'd be fine with not banning tanking in that context. But I think you're overstating how much gray area there is in the playoffs. Right now, playoff tanking is extremely unsubtle and I don't see the downside of at least taking that blatant tank tool away. Instead of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Potentially unpopular opinion, but I would also oppose implementing a ban. While I understand IRL you would never see a team bench all of their starters, you do typically see the starters play ~10% more min/game in the playoffs. If you try to do this in the sim, fatigue eventually factors in, and the only way to "reset" is to rest everyone that has been playing above their min/82 target.

To me, deciding who and when to rest players is one of the few things that is in control of the coaches to be able to make their team successful, especially since there isn't a whole lot of things you can change in Game Plan to give yourself a real edge. If someone wants to give their opponent a free win to try to gain a competitive advantage over the course of a series, why stop them? If you remove this variable, then it seems to me that you are negating a big part of the game and putting all of a team's success solely on the draft itself.

Again I understand that this is seen as tanking, and can frustrate some that want a more realistic basketball sim, but I see it as one of the few things that can be used to strategically beat your opponent. With that said, I would be open to requiring coaches to post players that are planned to sit out all game.

Posted by dmcclane on 9/6/2023 8:05:00 PM (view original):
Potentially unpopular opinion, but I would also oppose implementing a ban. While I understand IRL you would never see a team bench all of their starters, you do typically see the starters play ~10% more min/game in the playoffs. If you try to do this in the sim, fatigue eventually factors in, and the only way to "reset" is to rest everyone that has been playing above their min/82 target.

To me, deciding who and when to rest players is one of the few things that is in control of the coaches to be able to make their team successful, especially since there isn't a whole lot of things you can change in Game Plan to give yourself a real edge. If someone wants to give their opponent a free win to try to gain a competitive advantage over the course of a series, why stop them? If you remove this variable, then it seems to me that you are negating a big part of the game and putting all of a team's success solely on the draft itself.

Again I understand that this is seen as tanking, and can frustrate some that want a more realistic basketball sim, but I see it as one of the few things that can be used to strategically beat your opponent. With that said, I would be open to requiring coaches to post players that are planned to sit out all game.

I agree with all of this which is why I settled on posting the "injured list" as the best compromise.

I didn't find it that hard to fill the minutes I needed. The quality of those minutes is another story. I'm sure my team won't be very good, SF eligible Bobby Portis will play time at Center

Regarding the rest stuff my opinion evolved recently when Ash confirmed there is a penalty for playing guys significantly over their IRL mpg average even if they're 100% Fatigue. So I thought the rest game then jacking up the minutes came with a consequence, not only that you lose 1 of the games but that playing someone 40 something minutes that averages 30 mpg would perform worse. Curious what others have seen in terms of performance.

Example - I've played Ben many times in the playoffs and he often has the better team. Sometimes he takes a rest game and I'm always happy he does. Getting 25% of the wins in a series for free is great and I'm always sure to set my rest settings max in case. I've won series against him I would bet that I would not have won if he didn't give me one. And sometimes it pays off. In our last BOWIS series he took a rest game (I took one myself) and LeBron put up 46 in game 7 and statistically had basically no consequence of the higher minutes. So I've always viewed it as a risk and as the opponent, one I'm happy they take.

I'll do whatever, but I still think draft times need to somehow be factored in to who gets relegated to the bottom of the waitlist for the next Bowis Tournament.

I'm still reeling from this 23 draft. I guess it required far more prep than I thought. With 24 owners drafting from a pool of 30 teams and the ability to take anyone we want for the last 5 roster spots a team should be pretty good in comparison to an average IRL NBA team. There was only 1 .500 team last year, Toronto and their WIS team salary is just over $46M. My team salary is under $43M. I'm not going to win BOWIS, but if I did I would axe this crappy format. Gross!!!

Posted by jcred5 on 9/8/2023 8:47:00 AM (view original):
I'm still reeling from this 23 draft. I guess it required far more prep than I thought. With 24 owners drafting from a pool of 30 teams and the ability to take anyone we want for the last 5 roster spots a team should be pretty good in comparison to an average IRL NBA team. There was only 1 .500 team last year, Toronto and their WIS team salary is just over $46M. My team salary is under $43M. I'm not going to win BOWIS, but if I did I would axe this crappy format. Gross!!!

I’m right there with you, I think my salary was right there too. Going to be a looooooooong season.