What's your definition of value? What's your metric? Because I actually agree with some of your takes on the greatest all time, except how high you have Wilt. From all the math I have seen Wilt, despite his stupid crazy stats, before like 1967 he didn't add much value to his team. And Bill Russell added SUPER value and is super low. Just curious how you measure the value they add.

Posted by samuelyork93 on 4/12/2025 9:08:00 PM (view original):
What's your definition of value? What's your metric? Because I actually agree with some of your takes on the greatest all time, except how high you have Wilt. From all the math I have seen Wilt, despite his stupid crazy stats, before like 1967 he didn't add much value to his team. And Bill Russell added SUPER value and is super low. Just curious how you measure the value they add.

Oh, I disagree completely. In Wilt's rookie season his team went 49-26. The season before they were 32-40. So they had 17 more wins and 14 fewer losses than the year before. Wilt always had more win shares and a better WS/48 than Russell.

In Russel's rookie season his team went 44-28. The year before they were 39-33. So Russell added 5 games to the team, plus they had another great rookie in that season, Heinsohn, who was Rookie of the Year. Yes Russell missed some of that season, but he hardly added anything while Wilt turned a bad team into a really good team.

My formula is career win shares + best 7 season win shares divided by 2. So it's half career value and half peak value in the regular season. Then you add in the player's PER in the playoffs. Using PER does not give any advantage to a player whose team is in tons of playoff games, and no disadvantage to a player whose team does not play a lot of playoff games. It's a rate stat, not a cumulative stat. Russell led the league in defensive win shares many times, but he never led in total win shares or in win shares per 48 minutes. Wilt led 8 times in win shares and the same 8 seasons he led each time in win shares per 48 minutes.

I've analyzed every playoff series between the Celtics and Wilt's teams when they played against each other. In the 1963-64 finals Wilt outscored Russell by 90 points in the 5 games, outrebounded him too, and shot a much better percentage from the field. The problem was that while Wilt was outscoring Russell by 90 points the rest of the Celtics were out scoring the rest of the Warriors by 110 points.

THAT'S NOT WILT'S FAULT!

Wilt was far better and way more valuable than Russell. Russell just had WAY better teammates than Wilt did. That is reflected in this sim, as Russell is not very good at all while Wilt is one of the top 5 players. The Celtics had great players at every other position aside from center. Heinsohn and Bailey Howell at PF. Havlicek at SF. Sam Jones and Bill Sharman at SG. Cousy at PG. All those guys are like top 40 all time at their positions. When Sam Jones retired either him of Hal Greer was the greatest SG in league history. Sam Jones would have been MVP of like 3 Finals if they had the award back then.

People vastly overrate Russell because his team won lots of championships, as if the other players had nothing to do with it. Wilt got to play with still great Jerry West when he got to the Lakers, and they got to the finals 4 times and won once. But Baylor was only a shadow of himself after the 1962-63 season. His win shares per 48 for his first 5 seasons:

58-59 - .165
59-60 - .192
60-61 - .227
61-62 - .179
62-63 - .205

He then fell off tremendously to...

63-64 - .109
64-65 - .078
65-66 - .082
66-67 - .109
67-68 - .127
68-69 - .133
69-70 - .168
70-71 - .032

So after the 62-63 season he only had one season where he played even near all star level, and that was 1968-69. In 1963-1964 he was barely even an average NBA player. In 1964-65 and 1965-66 he was well below the level of an average starter in the league. In 1966-67 he was barely at the level of an NBA starter. So Wilt never played with Baylor when he was even very good, let alone great. He was a liability by then, and that also shows in the sim.

I have no idea what math you are looking at, but Wilt was easily the top player in the league in the 60s, and that's why he is BY FAR the best player from that era in the sim. Lots of leagues even ban Wilt because he is much better than everybody else if you are running a league with those older players.

wow this feels so 2004! carry on fellas!

"I have no idea what math you are looking at, but Wilt was easily the top player in the league in the 60s, and that's why he is BY FAR the best player from that era in the sim. Lots of leagues even ban Wilt because he is much better than everybody else if you are running a league with those older players."

As far as the math goes I am a big Ben Taylor fan and he has all sorts of podcasts and databases about NBA history

He has talked about Bill vs Wilt a couple places but this put a lot of it into perspective for me:


https://youtu.be/kCKSvjBnCRQ?si=aUVQrb5g2c7jjte5

Posted by samuelyork93 on 4/12/2025 10:52:00 PM (view original):
"I have no idea what math you are looking at, but Wilt was easily the top player in the league in the 60s, and that's why he is BY FAR the best player from that era in the sim. Lots of leagues even ban Wilt because he is much better than everybody else if you are running a league with those older players."

As far as the math goes I am a big Ben Taylor fan and he has all sorts of podcasts and databases about NBA history

He has talked about Bill vs Wilt a couple places but this put a lot of it into perspective for me:


https://youtu.be/kCKSvjBnCRQ?si=aUVQrb5g2c7jjte5

Yes, I've seen that before. I think Ben has his head up his ***. Russell is not the whole Celtic team. Havlicek made the all defense team 8 times. Cousy won an MVP. Heinsohn was a 6 time all star and 4 times all league. This Ben guy attributes all of the team's defensive prowess to Russell.

How do you continue to play this sim if you believe that Russell is more valuable than Wilt, as Russell is not even close to a great player in this sim and Wilt is clearly the best center. Jokic is close, but he'll never had a defensive rating like Wilt. Other centers have a season or two that are great, but Wilt has many great seasons. He is always among the MVP Leaders in any league he is in here. If you really believe that Russell is more valuable than Wilt, then you must also believe that this sim is terrible, and that it is somehow missing a ton of Russell's value. His rebounding is based on numbers. so they can't get that wrong other than maybe slightly off on off rebounding vs. def rebounding. But the total has to be right because it's based on what percentage of available rebounds he got while he was on the floor. As for blocked shots, they were not an official stat in those days, but for the games when someone was counting, Wilt averaged more blocks than Russell. Maybe both should be blocking twice as many shots as they do in the sim, but that's gonna make Wilt much better to. Russell is about as bad a foul shooter as Wilt, and his FG shooting is much worse than Wilt's. Russell is 100 on defense in most seasons, but Wilt is 100 in some seasons, and if not 100 he's 80-90. He's not a bad defender, he's a great defender. Wilt just had much lesser teammates than Russell for most of their careers.

People complain that Wilt shot too much. He was shooting 50% when the rest of his team was shooting like 37% in the early and mid 60s. HE SHOULD HAVE SHOT EVEN MORE!

A few points:
Ben specifically looks at how the team looks with and without A player which 100% accounts for the other players on his team. But I won't defend a video I didn't make too much.
I can simultaneously believe that the sim is great for what it is AND that it misses some of Russell's value l. Those two facts are not mutually exclusive.
You use sim MVPs as a bar here but the SIM MVP is mostly a stat tracker so yeah Wilt is going to win the MVP. I don't think it is a good bar. However, I think it is telling that Bill Russell won the ACTUAL MVP the same season Oscar Robertson had a triple double and Wilt averaged over 50. And this was when the players voted on the MVP rather than the media.
You also misunderstand me. I think Wilt had a better peak for sure I just think Russell had a better career. I think Wilts peak didn't start until 1966. AND since we are using the sim I will say that the sim does back up this opinion. The best Wilt seasons are 66-67 and 67-68. After those his best seasons are his Lakers seasons. I don't ever see anyone have better TEAM success with his early high stat seasons.
I DO say, in the sim and IRL, I would rather have peak Russell rather than high stat Wilt any day of the week.
BUT I would take Wilt in the late 60s specifically over most anybody.

Posted by savoybg on 4/12/2025 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by samuelyork93 on 4/12/2025 9:08:00 PM (view original):
What's your definition of value? What's your metric? Because I actually agree with some of your takes on the greatest all time, except how high you have Wilt. From all the math I have seen Wilt, despite his stupid crazy stats, before like 1967 he didn't add much value to his team. And Bill Russell added SUPER value and is super low. Just curious how you measure the value they add.

Oh, I disagree completely. In Wilt's rookie season his team went 49-26. The season before they were 32-40. So they had 17 more wins and 14 fewer losses than the year before. Wilt always had more win shares and a better WS/48 than Russell.

In Russel's rookie season his team went 44-28. The year before they were 39-33. So Russell added 5 games to the team, plus they had another great rookie in that season, Heinsohn, who was Rookie of the Year. Yes Russell missed some of that season, but he hardly added anything while Wilt turned a bad team into a really good team.

My formula is career win shares + best 7 season win shares divided by 2. So it's half career value and half peak value in the regular season. Then you add in the player's PER in the playoffs. Using PER does not give any advantage to a player whose team is in tons of playoff games, and no disadvantage to a player whose team does not play a lot of playoff games. It's a rate stat, not a cumulative stat. Russell led the league in defensive win shares many times, but he never led in total win shares or in win shares per 48 minutes. Wilt led 8 times in win shares and the same 8 seasons he led each time in win shares per 48 minutes.

I've analyzed every playoff series between the Celtics and Wilt's teams when they played against each other. In the 1963-64 finals Wilt outscored Russell by 90 points in the 5 games, outrebounded him too, and shot a much better percentage from the field. The problem was that while Wilt was outscoring Russell by 90 points the rest of the Celtics were out scoring the rest of the Warriors by 110 points.

THAT'S NOT WILT'S FAULT!

Wilt was far better and way more valuable than Russell. Russell just had WAY better teammates than Wilt did. That is reflected in this sim, as Russell is not very good at all while Wilt is one of the top 5 players. The Celtics had great players at every other position aside from center. Heinsohn and Bailey Howell at PF. Havlicek at SF. Sam Jones and Bill Sharman at SG. Cousy at PG. All those guys are like top 40 all time at their positions. When Sam Jones retired either him of Hal Greer was the greatest SG in league history. Sam Jones would have been MVP of like 3 Finals if they had the award back then.

People vastly overrate Russell because his team won lots of championships, as if the other players had nothing to do with it. Wilt got to play with still great Jerry West when he got to the Lakers, and they got to the finals 4 times and won once. But Baylor was only a shadow of himself after the 1962-63 season. His win shares per 48 for his first 5 seasons:

58-59 - .165
59-60 - .192
60-61 - .227
61-62 - .179
62-63 - .205

He then fell off tremendously to...

63-64 - .109
64-65 - .078
65-66 - .082
66-67 - .109
67-68 - .127
68-69 - .133
69-70 - .168
70-71 - .032

So after the 62-63 season he only had one season where he played even near all star level, and that was 1968-69. In 1963-1964 he was barely even an average NBA player. In 1964-65 and 1965-66 he was well below the level of an average starter in the league. In 1966-67 he was barely at the level of an NBA starter. So Wilt never played with Baylor when he was even very good, let alone great. He was a liability by then, and that also shows in the sim.

I have no idea what math you are looking at, but Wilt was easily the top player in the league in the 60s, and that's why he is BY FAR the best player from that era in the sim. Lots of leagues even ban Wilt because he is much better than everybody else if you are running a league with those older players.

This is the math i use:

Posted by samuelyork93 on 4/13/2025 7:05:00 AM (view original):
A few points:
Ben specifically looks at how the team looks with and without A player which 100% accounts for the other players on his team. But I won't defend a video I didn't make too much.
I can simultaneously believe that the sim is great for what it is AND that it misses some of Russell's value l. Those two facts are not mutually exclusive.
You use sim MVPs as a bar here but the SIM MVP is mostly a stat tracker so yeah Wilt is going to win the MVP. I don't think it is a good bar. However, I think it is telling that Bill Russell won the ACTUAL MVP the same season Oscar Robertson had a triple double and Wilt averaged over 50. And this was when the players voted on the MVP rather than the media.
You also misunderstand me. I think Wilt had a better peak for sure I just think Russell had a better career. I think Wilts peak didn't start until 1966. AND since we are using the sim I will say that the sim does back up this opinion. The best Wilt seasons are 66-67 and 67-68. After those his best seasons are his Lakers seasons. I don't ever see anyone have better TEAM success with his early high stat seasons.
I DO say, in the sim and IRL, I would rather have peak Russell rather than high stat Wilt any day of the week.
BUT I would take Wilt in the late 60s specifically over most anybody.

Wilt's best season in the sim is 66-67 with Philly. The only reason ANYONE would think Russell was even close to Wilt is because HIS TEAM won a lot of championships. That's a TEAM THING, not a RUSSELL thing. Why aren't you also pushing Sam Jones as one of the greatest players ever along with Russell.

Maybe you missed this.

In the 64 Finals Wilt outscored Russell by 90 points, outrebounded him, and shot a much better FG%. The rest of the Celtics out scored the rest of the Warriors by 110 points, so they won. It was the same in most games and most playoff series that they played against each other. It wasn't Russell that put them over the top against Wilt. It was the rest of the Celtics that put Russell over the top. Wilt shot 52%, Russell shot 35%. Sam Jones shot 56% and led the Celtics in scoring.

How can you possibly think that Russell provided more value in that series than Wilt did?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1964-nba-finals-warriors-vs-celtics.html

Posted by savoybg on 4/12/2025 4:17:00 PM (view original):
I don't play regularly because most of the ideas I have for leagues will not get 24 owners. I personally have tried to start leagues that have gotten enough owners to have an 8 team or a 12 team league, but could not get enough for a 24 team league. This has happened at least 5 times to me. And even the leagues that I did get to 24 owners with had to have at least 3 or 4 owners who took two teams apiece.

Nobody uses Kobe much...not because of normalization needed, but because he is far overrated. Same with Russell, and many other pre-70s players.

We have a big disagreement on Russell. You have him as the third greatest player, I have him as the 22nd greatest player. My rankings are based on math. Yours are just being pulled out of your *** with no mathematical basis for him being the third greatest player.

Here are my all time rankings of the most valuable players. My system measures the value that each player created both for their career and their 7 season peak, as well as their level of play in the playoffs. Not sure what yours measures as you seem to be just pulling them out of your *** if Russell is #3.

MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS ALL TIME (soon to be updated after this season's playoffs)
01. Kareem - 228.52
02. Wilt - 222.13
03. LeBron - 220.29
04. Jordan - 203.96
05. Mailman - 193.64
06. Chris Paul - 180.58
07. Nowitzki - 180.29
08. Duncan - 177.17
09. Oscar - 174.35
10. Stockton - 173.19
11. Admiral - 170.16
12. Garnett - 168.03
13. Shaq - 167.89
14. Gilmore - 164.84
15. Barkley - 163.89
16. Durant - 161.57
17. Dr. J - 160.96
18. Moses - 157.55
19. Harden - 155.77
20. Kobe - 155.62
21. West - 155.35
22. Russell - 152.61
23. Magic- 151.85
24. Olajuwon - 150.08
25. Miller - 148.40
26. Bird - 145.23
27. Schayes - 139.84
28. Pettit - 138.52
29. Issel - 138.40
30. Mikan - 137.19
31. Curry - 135.38
32. Dwight Howard - 132.95
33. Jokic - 132.46
34. Paul Pierce - 132.35
35. Pau Gasol - 131.69
36. Payton - 131.13
37. Drexler - 129.80
38. Dantley - 129.74
39. Ray Allen - 126.57
40. Parish - 126.02
41. Bellamy - 125.62
42. Wade - 124.88
43. Nash - 123.61
44. Ewing - 123.31
45. Greek Freak - 123.30
46. Frazier - 122.86
47. Barry - 122.25
48. Billups - 121.40
49. Pippen - 121.34
50. Havlicek - 121.02
51. Marion - 120.46
52. Kidd - 119.68
53. Anthony Davis - 118.68
54. Arizin - 117.78
55. Lanier - 117.52
56. Gervin - 116.15
57. Jimmy Butler - 116.00
58. Vince Carter - 115.65
59. Dominique - 115.55
60. McHale - 115.23
61. Westbrook - 115.21
62. Hayes - 114.96
63. Lillard - 114.12
64. Gobert - 113.95
65. Chet Walker - 113.76
66. Bailey Howell - 113.24
67. Aldridge - 111.63
68. Baylor - 111.36
69. Mutombo - 110.53
70. McGrady - 109.74
71. Kawhi Leonard - 109.73
72. Nance - 109.67
73. Horace Grant - 109.33
74. Zelmo Beaty - 109.12
75. Ginobli - 107.63
76. Ed Macauley - 107.51
77. Brand - 107.42
78. Terry Porter - 107.15
79. Hornacek - 106.01
80. Bosh - 105.77
81. Johnston - 105.65
82. Unseld - 105.60
83. Buck Williams - 105.30
84. Iverson - 104.93
85. Horford - 104.71
86. Sikma - 104.59
87. Schrempf - 104.02
88. Stoudemire - 103.71
89. Lowry - 103.17
90. Parker - 103.05
91. Kevin Johnson - 103.02
92. Carmelo - 102.99
93. McAdoo - 102.88
94. English - 101.81
95. Laimbeer - 101.33
96. Jerry Lucas - 101.26
97. DeAndre Jordan - 100.69
98. Cheeks - 99.50
99. Rasheed - 99.37
100. Moncrief - 99.26
101. DeRozan - 98.96
102. Thorpe - 98.90
103. Shawn Kemp - 98.36
104. Eddie Jones - 97.99
105. Hal Greer - 97.73
106. Grant Hill - 97.47
107. Tyson Chandler - 97.40
108. Kevin Love - 97.13
109. Sam Jones - 97.00
110. Cliff Hagan - 96.46
111. Jason Terry - 96.32
112. Mike Conley - 96.25
113. Mourning - 96.15
114. Ben Wallace - 96.10
115. Andre Miller - 96.03
116. Paul George - 95.17
117. Bobby Jones - 94.45
118. Marques Johnson - 94.44
119. Blake Griffin - 94.29
120. Mullin - 94.13
121. Cowens - 94.34
122. Hersey Hawkins - 93.90
123. Cummings - 93.38
124. AC Green - 93.38
125. Lenny Wilkins - 92.77
126. Kyrie Irving - 92.60
127. Webber - 92.52
128. Anthony Mason - 92.40
129. Mikkelsen - 92.23
130. Divac - 92.00
131. Iguodala - 91.63
132. Cassell - 91.57
133. Glen Rice - 91.11
134. Bob Cousy - 91.00
135. Rashard Lewis - 90.90
136. Worthy - 90.68
137. Tim Hardaway - 90.64
138. Bill Sharman - 90.30
139. Rodman - 89.97
140. Millsap - 89.92
141. Willis Reed - 89.79
142. Marc Gasol - 89.68
143. Stojakovic - 89.57
144. Isiah - 89.50
145. Steve Smith - 89.42
146. Archibald - 89.36
147. Billy Cunningham - 88.98
148. Jamison - 88.68
149. Jimmy Jones - 88.51
150. Connie Hawkins - 88.46
151. Larry Foust - 88.42
152. Lou Hudson - 88.36

You can't even have a REAL progressive league here as there are not enough players in a season to fill 24 teams until like 1989.

The baseball game here allows several different size leagues. Why not the basketball game? It's not a difficult thing to code.

I'd love to see both things done, a better game, and a bunch more league sizes. Neither will likely make the regulars like yourself play more often. The smaller leagues (8, 12, 16 teams) would allow several progressive leagues to start up with 8 teams and go through all of the 50s and 60s seasons that are available, and then expand to 12 teams when the ABA starts.

We're not enemies here Chewmaster. However, what I most want will take little coding work and what you want will take a ton of work to accomplish.

I'd also like to see options whether to use or not use 3 pointers, which would be important to playing leagues from before there was a 3 point line in use. The baseball game that I play at Imagine sports gives you like 15 different options. League size, Ohtani DH rule or not, DH or not, extra innings with or without runner on 2B, active roster size (25 or 26). pickoff rule, 2 throws or unlimited. and several others. The main one for basketball would be 3 point shots on or off.

Anyway, this new owner has not made one shred of difference to this sim.

I've been on this site 22 years and have seen some dumb stuff, this is easily the dumbest. I also wonder about the motivations of an owner with no active teams posting all this. My favorite part is seeing a guy who won 3 straight MVP's listed after a player named Miller, and wondering who is Miller? Is that Brad? And to claim math over your bias, I see no evidence of math.

Posted by jcred5 on 4/13/2025 9:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/12/2025 4:17:00 PM (view original):
I don't play regularly because most of the ideas I have for leagues will not get 24 owners. I personally have tried to start leagues that have gotten enough owners to have an 8 team or a 12 team league, but could not get enough for a 24 team league. This has happened at least 5 times to me. And even the leagues that I did get to 24 owners with had to have at least 3 or 4 owners who took two teams apiece.

Nobody uses Kobe much...not because of normalization needed, but because he is far overrated. Same with Russell, and many other pre-70s players.

We have a big disagreement on Russell. You have him as the third greatest player, I have him as the 22nd greatest player. My rankings are based on math. Yours are just being pulled out of your *** with no mathematical basis for him being the third greatest player.

Here are my all time rankings of the most valuable players. My system measures the value that each player created both for their career and their 7 season peak, as well as their level of play in the playoffs. Not sure what yours measures as you seem to be just pulling them out of your *** if Russell is #3.

MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS ALL TIME (soon to be updated after this season's playoffs)
01. Kareem - 228.52
02. Wilt - 222.13
03. LeBron - 220.29
04. Jordan - 203.96
05. Mailman - 193.64
06. Chris Paul - 180.58
07. Nowitzki - 180.29
08. Duncan - 177.17
09. Oscar - 174.35
10. Stockton - 173.19
11. Admiral - 170.16
12. Garnett - 168.03
13. Shaq - 167.89
14. Gilmore - 164.84
15. Barkley - 163.89
16. Durant - 161.57
17. Dr. J - 160.96
18. Moses - 157.55
19. Harden - 155.77
20. Kobe - 155.62
21. West - 155.35
22. Russell - 152.61
23. Magic- 151.85
24. Olajuwon - 150.08
25. Miller - 148.40
26. Bird - 145.23
27. Schayes - 139.84
28. Pettit - 138.52
29. Issel - 138.40
30. Mikan - 137.19
31. Curry - 135.38
32. Dwight Howard - 132.95
33. Jokic - 132.46
34. Paul Pierce - 132.35
35. Pau Gasol - 131.69
36. Payton - 131.13
37. Drexler - 129.80
38. Dantley - 129.74
39. Ray Allen - 126.57
40. Parish - 126.02
41. Bellamy - 125.62
42. Wade - 124.88
43. Nash - 123.61
44. Ewing - 123.31
45. Greek Freak - 123.30
46. Frazier - 122.86
47. Barry - 122.25
48. Billups - 121.40
49. Pippen - 121.34
50. Havlicek - 121.02
51. Marion - 120.46
52. Kidd - 119.68
53. Anthony Davis - 118.68
54. Arizin - 117.78
55. Lanier - 117.52
56. Gervin - 116.15
57. Jimmy Butler - 116.00
58. Vince Carter - 115.65
59. Dominique - 115.55
60. McHale - 115.23
61. Westbrook - 115.21
62. Hayes - 114.96
63. Lillard - 114.12
64. Gobert - 113.95
65. Chet Walker - 113.76
66. Bailey Howell - 113.24
67. Aldridge - 111.63
68. Baylor - 111.36
69. Mutombo - 110.53
70. McGrady - 109.74
71. Kawhi Leonard - 109.73
72. Nance - 109.67
73. Horace Grant - 109.33
74. Zelmo Beaty - 109.12
75. Ginobli - 107.63
76. Ed Macauley - 107.51
77. Brand - 107.42
78. Terry Porter - 107.15
79. Hornacek - 106.01
80. Bosh - 105.77
81. Johnston - 105.65
82. Unseld - 105.60
83. Buck Williams - 105.30
84. Iverson - 104.93
85. Horford - 104.71
86. Sikma - 104.59
87. Schrempf - 104.02
88. Stoudemire - 103.71
89. Lowry - 103.17
90. Parker - 103.05
91. Kevin Johnson - 103.02
92. Carmelo - 102.99
93. McAdoo - 102.88
94. English - 101.81
95. Laimbeer - 101.33
96. Jerry Lucas - 101.26
97. DeAndre Jordan - 100.69
98. Cheeks - 99.50
99. Rasheed - 99.37
100. Moncrief - 99.26
101. DeRozan - 98.96
102. Thorpe - 98.90
103. Shawn Kemp - 98.36
104. Eddie Jones - 97.99
105. Hal Greer - 97.73
106. Grant Hill - 97.47
107. Tyson Chandler - 97.40
108. Kevin Love - 97.13
109. Sam Jones - 97.00
110. Cliff Hagan - 96.46
111. Jason Terry - 96.32
112. Mike Conley - 96.25
113. Mourning - 96.15
114. Ben Wallace - 96.10
115. Andre Miller - 96.03
116. Paul George - 95.17
117. Bobby Jones - 94.45
118. Marques Johnson - 94.44
119. Blake Griffin - 94.29
120. Mullin - 94.13
121. Cowens - 94.34
122. Hersey Hawkins - 93.90
123. Cummings - 93.38
124. AC Green - 93.38
125. Lenny Wilkins - 92.77
126. Kyrie Irving - 92.60
127. Webber - 92.52
128. Anthony Mason - 92.40
129. Mikkelsen - 92.23
130. Divac - 92.00
131. Iguodala - 91.63
132. Cassell - 91.57
133. Glen Rice - 91.11
134. Bob Cousy - 91.00
135. Rashard Lewis - 90.90
136. Worthy - 90.68
137. Tim Hardaway - 90.64
138. Bill Sharman - 90.30
139. Rodman - 89.97
140. Millsap - 89.92
141. Willis Reed - 89.79
142. Marc Gasol - 89.68
143. Stojakovic - 89.57
144. Isiah - 89.50
145. Steve Smith - 89.42
146. Archibald - 89.36
147. Billy Cunningham - 88.98
148. Jamison - 88.68
149. Jimmy Jones - 88.51
150. Connie Hawkins - 88.46
151. Larry Foust - 88.42
152. Lou Hudson - 88.36

You can't even have a REAL progressive league here as there are not enough players in a season to fill 24 teams until like 1989.

The baseball game here allows several different size leagues. Why not the basketball game? It's not a difficult thing to code.

I'd love to see both things done, a better game, and a bunch more league sizes. Neither will likely make the regulars like yourself play more often. The smaller leagues (8, 12, 16 teams) would allow several progressive leagues to start up with 8 teams and go through all of the 50s and 60s seasons that are available, and then expand to 12 teams when the ABA starts.

We're not enemies here Chewmaster. However, what I most want will take little coding work and what you want will take a ton of work to accomplish.

I'd also like to see options whether to use or not use 3 pointers, which would be important to playing leagues from before there was a 3 point line in use. The baseball game that I play at Imagine sports gives you like 15 different options. League size, Ohtani DH rule or not, DH or not, extra innings with or without runner on 2B, active roster size (25 or 26). pickoff rule, 2 throws or unlimited. and several others. The main one for basketball would be 3 point shots on or off.

Anyway, this new owner has not made one shred of difference to this sim.

I've been on this site 22 years and have seen some dumb stuff, this is easily the dumbest. I also wonder about the motivations of an owner with no active teams posting all this. My favorite part is seeing a guy who won 3 straight MVP's listed after a player named Miller, and wondering who is Miller? Is that Brad? And to claim math over your bias, I see no evidence of math.

Did you miss the numbers (math) next to each player's name, idiot?

Do you think that win shares and PER do not use math?

Apparently you don't understand the basic concept that you can't provide value while you are retired, as in the case of Bird and Miller.

CAREER MINUTES
Miller - 47619
Bird --- 34443

Miller's career was 38% longer than Bird's career.

WS/48
Bird - .203
Miller - .176

Clearly Bird was better per minute, But not enough better than Miller to make up for playing 13,176 fewer minutes in his career.

Just as Mickey Mantle was better per game than Hank Aaron, but not enough better to make up for a much shorter career.

WAR/162
Mantle - 7.4
Aaron -- 7.0

PLATE APPEARANCES
Mantle --- 9,910
Aaron -- 13,941

Aaron's career was 41% longer than Mantle's career.

Basic math, dummkopf!

Posted by savoybg on 4/13/2025 9:21:00 AM (view original):
I officiated basketball for 17 years, high school mostly. I can't tell you how many times I worked a game where one team had the best player by far (Wilt) while the other team had like 4 of the next 5 best players (Celtics) and the team with that best player hardly ever won the game. One guy is not enough. If Russell had been drafted by some other team he would not be considered even as a top 10 center. People who rate him very highly only do so because of his team winning championships all the time. They act like Russell was the whole team and guys like Sam Jones, Heinsohn, Havlicek and Cousy were just along for the ride.

I like to listen to Ben Taylor’s Thinking Basketball, but as far as I know he didn’t spend 17 years as a high school referee. You’ve convinced me! Can you please let me know what the name of your podcast is and where we can find it?

Posted by Midge on 4/13/2025 2:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/13/2025 9:21:00 AM (view original):
I officiated basketball for 17 years, high school mostly. I can't tell you how many times I worked a game where one team had the best player by far (Wilt) while the other team had like 4 of the next 5 best players (Celtics) and the team with that best player hardly ever won the game. One guy is not enough. If Russell had been drafted by some other team he would not be considered even as a top 10 center. People who rate him very highly only do so because of his team winning championships all the time. They act like Russell was the whole team and guys like Sam Jones, Heinsohn, Havlicek and Cousy were just along for the ride.

I like to listen to Ben Taylor’s Thinking Basketball, but as far as I know he didn’t spend 17 years as a high school referee. You’ve convinced me! Can you please let me know what the name of your podcast is and where we can find it?

Sarcasm I suppose. When you guys start drafting Russell ahead of Wilt then I'll start believing that you actually believe that Russell was more valuable than Wilt.

Tell us, is Bernie Williams more valuable than Griffey Jr. because Bernie won 4 championships and Griffey never even won a pennant?

Posted by savoybg on 4/12/2025 4:17:00 PM (view original):
I don't play regularly because most of the ideas I have for leagues will not get 24 owners. I personally have tried to start leagues that have gotten enough owners to have an 8 team or a 12 team league, but could not get enough for a 24 team league. This has happened at least 5 times to me. And even the leagues that I did get to 24 owners with had to have at least 3 or 4 owners who took two teams apiece.

Nobody uses Kobe much...not because of normalization needed, but because he is far overrated. Same with Russell, and many other pre-70s players.

We have a big disagreement on Russell. You have him as the third greatest player, I have him as the 22nd greatest player. My rankings are based on math. Yours are just being pulled out of your *** with no mathematical basis for him being the third greatest player.

Here are my all time rankings of the most valuable players. My system measures the value that each player created both for their career and their 7 season peak, as well as their level of play in the playoffs. Not sure what yours measures as you seem to be just pulling them out of your *** if Russell is #3.

MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS ALL TIME (soon to be updated after this season's playoffs)
01. Kareem - 228.52
02. Wilt - 222.13
03. LeBron - 220.29
04. Jordan - 203.96
05. Mailman - 193.64
06. Chris Paul - 180.58
07. Nowitzki - 180.29
08. Duncan - 177.17
09. Oscar - 174.35
10. Stockton - 173.19
11. Admiral - 170.16
12. Garnett - 168.03
13. Shaq - 167.89
14. Gilmore - 164.84
15. Barkley - 163.89
16. Durant - 161.57
17. Dr. J - 160.96
18. Moses - 157.55
19. Harden - 155.77
20. Kobe - 155.62
21. West - 155.35
22. Russell - 152.61
23. Magic- 151.85
24. Olajuwon - 150.08
25. Miller - 148.40
26. Bird - 145.23
27. Schayes - 139.84
28. Pettit - 138.52
29. Issel - 138.40
30. Mikan - 137.19
31. Curry - 135.38
32. Dwight Howard - 132.95
33. Jokic - 132.46
34. Paul Pierce - 132.35
35. Pau Gasol - 131.69
36. Payton - 131.13
37. Drexler - 129.80
38. Dantley - 129.74
39. Ray Allen - 126.57
40. Parish - 126.02
41. Bellamy - 125.62
42. Wade - 124.88
43. Nash - 123.61
44. Ewing - 123.31
45. Greek Freak - 123.30
46. Frazier - 122.86
47. Barry - 122.25
48. Billups - 121.40
49. Pippen - 121.34
50. Havlicek - 121.02
51. Marion - 120.46
52. Kidd - 119.68
53. Anthony Davis - 118.68
54. Arizin - 117.78
55. Lanier - 117.52
56. Gervin - 116.15
57. Jimmy Butler - 116.00
58. Vince Carter - 115.65
59. Dominique - 115.55
60. McHale - 115.23
61. Westbrook - 115.21
62. Hayes - 114.96
63. Lillard - 114.12
64. Gobert - 113.95
65. Chet Walker - 113.76
66. Bailey Howell - 113.24
67. Aldridge - 111.63
68. Baylor - 111.36
69. Mutombo - 110.53
70. McGrady - 109.74
71. Kawhi Leonard - 109.73
72. Nance - 109.67
73. Horace Grant - 109.33
74. Zelmo Beaty - 109.12
75. Ginobli - 107.63
76. Ed Macauley - 107.51
77. Brand - 107.42
78. Terry Porter - 107.15
79. Hornacek - 106.01
80. Bosh - 105.77
81. Johnston - 105.65
82. Unseld - 105.60
83. Buck Williams - 105.30
84. Iverson - 104.93
85. Horford - 104.71
86. Sikma - 104.59
87. Schrempf - 104.02
88. Stoudemire - 103.71
89. Lowry - 103.17
90. Parker - 103.05
91. Kevin Johnson - 103.02
92. Carmelo - 102.99
93. McAdoo - 102.88
94. English - 101.81
95. Laimbeer - 101.33
96. Jerry Lucas - 101.26
97. DeAndre Jordan - 100.69
98. Cheeks - 99.50
99. Rasheed - 99.37
100. Moncrief - 99.26
101. DeRozan - 98.96
102. Thorpe - 98.90
103. Shawn Kemp - 98.36
104. Eddie Jones - 97.99
105. Hal Greer - 97.73
106. Grant Hill - 97.47
107. Tyson Chandler - 97.40
108. Kevin Love - 97.13
109. Sam Jones - 97.00
110. Cliff Hagan - 96.46
111. Jason Terry - 96.32
112. Mike Conley - 96.25
113. Mourning - 96.15
114. Ben Wallace - 96.10
115. Andre Miller - 96.03
116. Paul George - 95.17
117. Bobby Jones - 94.45
118. Marques Johnson - 94.44
119. Blake Griffin - 94.29
120. Mullin - 94.13
121. Cowens - 94.34
122. Hersey Hawkins - 93.90
123. Cummings - 93.38
124. AC Green - 93.38
125. Lenny Wilkins - 92.77
126. Kyrie Irving - 92.60
127. Webber - 92.52
128. Anthony Mason - 92.40
129. Mikkelsen - 92.23
130. Divac - 92.00
131. Iguodala - 91.63
132. Cassell - 91.57
133. Glen Rice - 91.11
134. Bob Cousy - 91.00
135. Rashard Lewis - 90.90
136. Worthy - 90.68
137. Tim Hardaway - 90.64
138. Bill Sharman - 90.30
139. Rodman - 89.97
140. Millsap - 89.92
141. Willis Reed - 89.79
142. Marc Gasol - 89.68
143. Stojakovic - 89.57
144. Isiah - 89.50
145. Steve Smith - 89.42
146. Archibald - 89.36
147. Billy Cunningham - 88.98
148. Jamison - 88.68
149. Jimmy Jones - 88.51
150. Connie Hawkins - 88.46
151. Larry Foust - 88.42
152. Lou Hudson - 88.36

You can't even have a REAL progressive league here as there are not enough players in a season to fill 24 teams until like 1989.

The baseball game here allows several different size leagues. Why not the basketball game? It's not a difficult thing to code.

I'd love to see both things done, a better game, and a bunch more league sizes. Neither will likely make the regulars like yourself play more often. The smaller leagues (8, 12, 16 teams) would allow several progressive leagues to start up with 8 teams and go through all of the 50s and 60s seasons that are available, and then expand to 12 teams when the ABA starts.

We're not enemies here Chewmaster. However, what I most want will take little coding work and what you want will take a ton of work to accomplish.

I'd also like to see options whether to use or not use 3 pointers, which would be important to playing leagues from before there was a 3 point line in use. The baseball game that I play at Imagine sports gives you like 15 different options. League size, Ohtani DH rule or not, DH or not, extra innings with or without runner on 2B, active roster size (25 or 26). pickoff rule, 2 throws or unlimited. and several others. The main one for basketball would be 3 point shots on or off.

Anyway, this new owner has not made one shred of difference to this sim.

We talked about this before, and I think I was too kind before. So let me saying it like this:

if you think Olajuwon is the 24th greatest player in history you either do not know history, your metric is way the hell off, or you are an abject moron. I am leaning toward a combination of the three. Dirk in the top 10 is one of the most ridiculously moronic things I have ever seen. EVER SEEN.

I watched the movie Ishtar, and that makes more sense than the BS you are slinging here.

Posted by PBandJ on 4/14/2025 12:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/12/2025 4:17:00 PM (view original):
I don't play regularly because most of the ideas I have for leagues will not get 24 owners. I personally have tried to start leagues that have gotten enough owners to have an 8 team or a 12 team league, but could not get enough for a 24 team league. This has happened at least 5 times to me. And even the leagues that I did get to 24 owners with had to have at least 3 or 4 owners who took two teams apiece.

Nobody uses Kobe much...not because of normalization needed, but because he is far overrated. Same with Russell, and many other pre-70s players.

We have a big disagreement on Russell. You have him as the third greatest player, I have him as the 22nd greatest player. My rankings are based on math. Yours are just being pulled out of your *** with no mathematical basis for him being the third greatest player.

Here are my all time rankings of the most valuable players. My system measures the value that each player created both for their career and their 7 season peak, as well as their level of play in the playoffs. Not sure what yours measures as you seem to be just pulling them out of your *** if Russell is #3.

MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS ALL TIME (soon to be updated after this season's playoffs)
01. Kareem - 228.52
02. Wilt - 222.13
03. LeBron - 220.29
04. Jordan - 203.96
05. Mailman - 193.64
06. Chris Paul - 180.58
07. Nowitzki - 180.29
08. Duncan - 177.17
09. Oscar - 174.35
10. Stockton - 173.19
11. Admiral - 170.16
12. Garnett - 168.03
13. Shaq - 167.89
14. Gilmore - 164.84
15. Barkley - 163.89
16. Durant - 161.57
17. Dr. J - 160.96
18. Moses - 157.55
19. Harden - 155.77
20. Kobe - 155.62
21. West - 155.35
22. Russell - 152.61
23. Magic- 151.85
24. Olajuwon - 150.08
25. Miller - 148.40
26. Bird - 145.23
27. Schayes - 139.84
28. Pettit - 138.52
29. Issel - 138.40
30. Mikan - 137.19
31. Curry - 135.38
32. Dwight Howard - 132.95
33. Jokic - 132.46
34. Paul Pierce - 132.35
35. Pau Gasol - 131.69
36. Payton - 131.13
37. Drexler - 129.80
38. Dantley - 129.74
39. Ray Allen - 126.57
40. Parish - 126.02
41. Bellamy - 125.62
42. Wade - 124.88
43. Nash - 123.61
44. Ewing - 123.31
45. Greek Freak - 123.30
46. Frazier - 122.86
47. Barry - 122.25
48. Billups - 121.40
49. Pippen - 121.34
50. Havlicek - 121.02
51. Marion - 120.46
52. Kidd - 119.68
53. Anthony Davis - 118.68
54. Arizin - 117.78
55. Lanier - 117.52
56. Gervin - 116.15
57. Jimmy Butler - 116.00
58. Vince Carter - 115.65
59. Dominique - 115.55
60. McHale - 115.23
61. Westbrook - 115.21
62. Hayes - 114.96
63. Lillard - 114.12
64. Gobert - 113.95
65. Chet Walker - 113.76
66. Bailey Howell - 113.24
67. Aldridge - 111.63
68. Baylor - 111.36
69. Mutombo - 110.53
70. McGrady - 109.74
71. Kawhi Leonard - 109.73
72. Nance - 109.67
73. Horace Grant - 109.33
74. Zelmo Beaty - 109.12
75. Ginobli - 107.63
76. Ed Macauley - 107.51
77. Brand - 107.42
78. Terry Porter - 107.15
79. Hornacek - 106.01
80. Bosh - 105.77
81. Johnston - 105.65
82. Unseld - 105.60
83. Buck Williams - 105.30
84. Iverson - 104.93
85. Horford - 104.71
86. Sikma - 104.59
87. Schrempf - 104.02
88. Stoudemire - 103.71
89. Lowry - 103.17
90. Parker - 103.05
91. Kevin Johnson - 103.02
92. Carmelo - 102.99
93. McAdoo - 102.88
94. English - 101.81
95. Laimbeer - 101.33
96. Jerry Lucas - 101.26
97. DeAndre Jordan - 100.69
98. Cheeks - 99.50
99. Rasheed - 99.37
100. Moncrief - 99.26
101. DeRozan - 98.96
102. Thorpe - 98.90
103. Shawn Kemp - 98.36
104. Eddie Jones - 97.99
105. Hal Greer - 97.73
106. Grant Hill - 97.47
107. Tyson Chandler - 97.40
108. Kevin Love - 97.13
109. Sam Jones - 97.00
110. Cliff Hagan - 96.46
111. Jason Terry - 96.32
112. Mike Conley - 96.25
113. Mourning - 96.15
114. Ben Wallace - 96.10
115. Andre Miller - 96.03
116. Paul George - 95.17
117. Bobby Jones - 94.45
118. Marques Johnson - 94.44
119. Blake Griffin - 94.29
120. Mullin - 94.13
121. Cowens - 94.34
122. Hersey Hawkins - 93.90
123. Cummings - 93.38
124. AC Green - 93.38
125. Lenny Wilkins - 92.77
126. Kyrie Irving - 92.60
127. Webber - 92.52
128. Anthony Mason - 92.40
129. Mikkelsen - 92.23
130. Divac - 92.00
131. Iguodala - 91.63
132. Cassell - 91.57
133. Glen Rice - 91.11
134. Bob Cousy - 91.00
135. Rashard Lewis - 90.90
136. Worthy - 90.68
137. Tim Hardaway - 90.64
138. Bill Sharman - 90.30
139. Rodman - 89.97
140. Millsap - 89.92
141. Willis Reed - 89.79
142. Marc Gasol - 89.68
143. Stojakovic - 89.57
144. Isiah - 89.50
145. Steve Smith - 89.42
146. Archibald - 89.36
147. Billy Cunningham - 88.98
148. Jamison - 88.68
149. Jimmy Jones - 88.51
150. Connie Hawkins - 88.46
151. Larry Foust - 88.42
152. Lou Hudson - 88.36

You can't even have a REAL progressive league here as there are not enough players in a season to fill 24 teams until like 1989.

The baseball game here allows several different size leagues. Why not the basketball game? It's not a difficult thing to code.

I'd love to see both things done, a better game, and a bunch more league sizes. Neither will likely make the regulars like yourself play more often. The smaller leagues (8, 12, 16 teams) would allow several progressive leagues to start up with 8 teams and go through all of the 50s and 60s seasons that are available, and then expand to 12 teams when the ABA starts.

We're not enemies here Chewmaster. However, what I most want will take little coding work and what you want will take a ton of work to accomplish.

I'd also like to see options whether to use or not use 3 pointers, which would be important to playing leagues from before there was a 3 point line in use. The baseball game that I play at Imagine sports gives you like 15 different options. League size, Ohtani DH rule or not, DH or not, extra innings with or without runner on 2B, active roster size (25 or 26). pickoff rule, 2 throws or unlimited. and several others. The main one for basketball would be 3 point shots on or off.

Anyway, this new owner has not made one shred of difference to this sim.

We talked about this before, and I think I was too kind before. So let me saying it like this:

if you think Olajuwon is the 24th greatest player in history you either do not know history, your metric is way the hell off, or you are an abject moron. I am leaning toward a combination of the three. Dirk in the top 10 is one of the most ridiculously moronic things I have ever seen. EVER SEEN.

I watched the movie Ishtar, and that makes more sense than the BS you are slinging here.

I never said greatest. I said most valuable.

Dirk is 9th in career win shares with 206.34. Olajuwon is 23rd in career win shares with 162.77. That's a W-I-D-E gap. Dirk created 27% more value than Olajuwon for their careers.

Dirk's win shares per 48 minutes is .1928

Olajuwon's win shares per 48 minutes is .1767. So Dirk's average level of play was 9% better than Olajuwon's average level of play.

Dirk played 51368 career minutes. Olajuwon played 44222. So not only did Dirk play at a higher level than Olajuwon on average, he also played 16% more minutes than Olajuwon. It's not even close. Dirk created far more value for his career than Olajuwon did for his career.

Olajuwon was slightly better than Dirk in the playoffs. They are 19th and 20th all time on the win shares per 48 minutes list for the playoffs. Olajuwon is at .1887 and Dirk is at .1884.

Olajuwon had 8 seasons with 10 or more win shares and never led the league. Dirk had 12 seasons with 10 or more win shares and led the league twice with totals that Olajuwon never even sniffed. Dirk had 17.7 win shares in 2005-06 and had 16.3 win shares in 2006-07. He also had 2 other seasons with 15 or more win shares. Olajuwon's only reached 15 win shares once. They each won one MVP.

If your best argument is that I am an abject moron, you've lost this debate already.

BTW, Dirk is a 38% three pointer shooter and made almost 2000 of them. Shooting 38% on threes is the same as shooting 57% on twos. Olajuwon shot 20% on threes and made a whopping 25 of them. Olajuwon shot 71% from the line. Dirk shot 88% from the line. Dirk had a much lower turnover rate than Hakeem too. Dirk averaged just 1.6 turnovers per game. Hakeem averaged 3.0 turnovers per game. Dirk was a FAR MORE efficient offensive player than Hakeem was.

BTW, for you guys who rate Olajuwon above David Robinson based on one playoff series, keep in mind that when they played head to head in the regular season David went 30-12 against Olajuwon.