Greatest Players At Each Position Topic

savoybg
Posts: 3104 (0)
All Star
10 34
Prospect
I have come up with a basketball version of the JAWS Ratings that are used for baseball, where players are ranked by a mix of their career value and their peak value. Additionally, since basketball players play a much higher percentage of their overall career games in the playoffs than in baseball, I have added a playoff component for level of play in the playoffs,

The formula is career win shares + best 7 seasons win shares divided by 2, and then add in playoff PER to get the final rating. Also, ABA players got a small deduction for that league not being as strong as the NBA.

Here's what the system shows as the best players at each position. Keep in mind that active players are still accumulating value and will continue to move up on the lists as long as they keep playing. Also realize that players can't accumulate value if they are off hitting .210 in AA Baseball, or retiring early because they couldn't keep their dicks in their pants and got HIV.

Players are grouped in tiers, as these numbers are not precise enough to say that a players that's one or two points higher definitely accumulated more value than the other player.

ACTIVE PLAYERS IN RED

POINT GUARD
Chris Paul - 175.74
Oscar - 174.35
Stockton - 173.19

West - 155.35
Magic- 151.85

Payton - 131.13
Curry - 128.15

Nash - 123.61
Frazier - 122.86
Billups - 121.40
Kidd - 119.68

Westbrook - 113.81

Terry Porter - 107.15
Lillard - 105.44
Parker - 103.05
Kevin Johnson - 103.02

Lowry - 100.07
Cheeks - 99.50
Andre Miller - 96.03


SHOOTING GUARD
Jordan - 203.96

Kobe - 155.62
Miller - 148.40
Harden - 147.74

Ray Allen - 126.57
Wade - 124.88
Drexler - 124.09

Gervin - 116.15
Vince Carter - 115.65

McGrady - 109.74
Ginobli - 107.63
Hornacek - 106.01
Iverson - 104.93

Moncrief - 99.26
Eddie Jones - 97.99
Hal Greer - 97.73
Sam Jones - 97.00
Jason Terry - 96.32

Hersey Hawkins - 93.90
Bill Sharman - 90.30
Steve Smith - 89.42
DeRozan - 88.61
Lou Hudson - 88.36


SMALL FORWARD
LeBron - 213.55

Dr. J - 160.96
Durant - 154.34
Bird - 145.23

Paul Pierce - 132.35
Dantley - 129.74

Barry - 122.25
Pippen - 121.34
Havlicek - 121.02
Marion - 120.46
Arizin - 117.78

Dominique - 115.55
Chet Walker - 113.76
Baylor - 111.36

Schrempf - 104.02
Carmelo - 102.99
Jimmy Butler - 102.93
English - 101.81
Kawhi Leonard - 101.14

Grant Hill - 97.47
Cliff Hagan - 96.46
Marques Johnson - 94.44
Mullin - 94.13


POWER FORWARD
Mailman - 193.64

Nowitzki - 180.29
Duncan - 177.17

Garnett - 168.03
Barkley - 163.89

Schayes - 139.84
Pettit - 138.52
Pau Gasol - 131.69

McHale - 115.23
Hayes - 114.96
Bailey Howell - 113.24
Aldridge - 111.63

Nance - 109.67
Greek Freak - 109.57
Horace Grant - 109.33
Brand - 107.42
Buck Williams - 105.30

Stoudemire - 103.71
Jerry Lucas - 101.26
Rasheed - 99.37
Thorpe - 98.90
Shawn Kemp - 98.36
Anthony Davis - 98.10

Kevin Love - 94.92
Bobby Jones - 94.45
Blake Griffin - 93.46
Cummings - 93.38
AC Green - 93.38
Webber - 92.52
Anthony Mason - 92.40
Mikkelsen - 92.23


CENTER
Kareem - 228.52
Wilt - 222.13

Admiral - 170.16
Shaq - 167.89
Gilmore - 164.84

Moses - 157.55
Russell - 152.61
Olajuwon - 150.08

Issel - 138.40
Mikan - 137.19
Dwight Howard - 132.95

Parish - 126.02
Bellamy - 125.62
Ewing - 123.31

Lanier - 117.52
Mutombo - 110.53
Beaty - 109.12
Jokic - 107.61
Ed Macauley - 107.51

Bosh - 105.77
Johnston - 105.65
Unseld - 105.60
Sikma - 104.59
Gobert - 103.56
McAdoo - 102.88
Laimbeer - 101.33

DeAndre Jordan - 99.46
Horford - 99.18
Chandler - 97.40
Mourning - 96.15
Ben Wallace - 96.10
Cowens - 94.34
10/8/2022 8:59 PM (edited)
savoybg
Posts: 3104 (0)
All Star
10 34
Prospect

THE BRUCIE RANKINGS

TOP 100+ NBA/ABA PLAYERS OF ALL TIME - OCTOBER 5, 2022

01. Kareem - 228.52
02. Wilt - 222.13
03. LeBron - 213.55
04. Jordan - 203.96

05. Mailman - 193.64

06. Nowitzki - 180.29
07. Duncan - 177.17
08. Chris Paul - 175.74
09. Oscar - 174.35
10. Stockton - 173.19

11. Admiral - 170.16
12. Garnett - 168.03
13. Shaq - 167.89
14. Gilmore - 164.84
15. Barkley - 163.89

16. Dr. J - 160.96
17. Moses - 157.55
18. Kobe - 155.62
19. West - 155.35
20. Durant - 154.34
21. Russell - 152.61
22. Magic- 151.85
23. Olajuwon - 150.08

24. Miller - 148.40
25. Harden - 147.74
26. Bird - 145.23

27. Schayes - 139.84
28. Pettit - 138.52
29. Issel - 138.40
30. Mikan - 137.19

31. Dwight Howard - 132.95
32. Paul Pierce - 132.35
33. Pau Gasol - 131.69
34. Payton - 131.13
35. Drexler - 129.80
36. Dantley - 129.74
37. Curry - 128.15

38. Ray Allen - 126.57
39. Parish - 126.02
40. Bellamy - 125.62
41. Wade - 124.88
42. Nash - 123.61
43. Ewing - 123.31
44. Frazier - 122.86
45. Barry - 122.25

46. Billups - 121.40
47. Pippen - 121.34
48. Havlicek - 121.02
49. Marion - 120.46
50. Kidd - 119.68

51. Arizin - 117.78
52. Lanier - 117.52
53. Gervin - 116.15
54. Vince Carter - 115.65
55. Dominique - 115.55
56. McHale - 115.23
57. Hayes - 114.96
58. Westbrook - 113.81
59. Chet Walker - 113.76
60. Bailey Howell - 113.24

61. Aldridge - 111.63
62. Baylor - 111.36
63. Mutombo - 110.53
64. McGrady - 109.74
65. Nance - 109.67
66. Greek Freak - 109.57
67. Horace Grant - 109.33
68. Beaty - 109.12
69. Ginobli - 107.63
70. Jokic - 107.61
71. Ed Macauley - 107.51
72. Brand - 107.42
73. Terry Porter - 107.15

74. Hornacek - 106.01
75. Bosh - 105.77
76. Johnston - 105.65
77. Unseld - 105.60
78. Lillard - 105.44
79. Buck Williams - 105.30
80. Iverson - 104.93
81. Sikma - 104.59
82. Schrempf - 104.02
83. Stoudemire - 103.71
84. Gobert - 103.56
85. Parker - 103.05
86. Kevin Johnson - 103.02
87. Carmelo - 102.99
88. Jimmy Butler - 102.93
89. McAdoo - 102.88

090. English - 101.81
091. Laimbeer - 101.33
092. Jerry Lucas - 101.26
093. Kawhi Leonard - 101.14
094. Lowry - 100.07
095. Cheeks - 99.50
096. DeAndre Jordan - 99.46
097. Rasheed - 99.37
098. Moncrief - 99.26
099. Thorpe - 98.90
100. Horford - 99.18
101. Shawn Kemp - 98.36
102. Anthony Davis - 98.10
103. Eddie Jones - 97.99
104. Hal Greer - 97.73
105. Grant Hill - 97.47
106. Chandler - 97.40
107. Sam Jones - 97.00
10/5/2022 10:54 AM
savoybg
Posts: 3104 (0)
All Star
10 34
Prospect
Not one comment from anybody?

Any surprises, I guess nobody is surprised that Isiah Thomas did not make the list given that he's not a real strong player in this SIM. For some reason many people think he's some all time great. I don't get it.
10/5/2022 4:05 PM
copernicus
Posts: 5374 (3)
Hall of Famer
526 23 1 128
Veteran
at this point am I surprised that you don't know what you are talking about? no
10/6/2022 8:42 AM
savoybg
Posts: 3104 (0)
All Star
10 34
Prospect
Posted by copernicus on 10/6/2022 8:42:00 AM (view original):
at this point am I surprised that you don't know what you are talking about? no
Huh? Don't know what I'm talking about?

These rankings are not my opinion and have nothing to do with this sim. They are basically the basketball version of the baseball JAWS Rankings.

The formula is...

CAREER WIN SHARES + Top 7 WIN SHARE SEASONS divided by 2, so it's half career value and half peak value. Then I add in career playoffs PER. I did not use playoff win shares because some players play way more or way fewer playoff games than others. I wanted some measure of playoff performance since playoffs are a much higher % of a player's career games in basketball, so I went with playoff PER which seems to work nicely.



10/6/2022 11:54 AM
copernicus
Posts: 5374 (3)
Hall of Famer
526 23 1 128
Veteran
Take Shaq for instance, when developing a system of analysis it is common practice to sanity-check your findings against expected outcomes - if there is some wild variant like Dirk's placement or Shaq's placement a person developing such a system reviews their methodology looking for the glaring errors that must be present

one or more of your variables must be off (and I'm no longer talking about your system here)
10/6/2022 2:02 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3104 (0)
All Star
10 34
Prospect
Posted by copernicus on 10/6/2022 2:02:00 PM (view original):
Take Shaq for instance, when developing a system of analysis it is common practice to sanity-check your findings against expected outcomes - if there is some wild variant like Dirk's placement or Shaq's placement a person developing such a system reviews their methodology looking for the glaring errors that must be present

one or more of your variables must be off (and I'm no longer talking about your system here)
You don't know what you're talking about. Dirk WAS expected to be higher than Shaq as he maintained his level of play and his ability to play big minutes for much longer than Shaq did. Except for 06, Shaq's last 6 seasons were all as a backup who was far less effective than he was at his peak. Dirk also played 315 games more than Shaq did, accumulating value while Shaq was retired.
10/6/2022 3:27 PM (edited)
savoybg
Posts: 3104 (0)
All Star
10 34
Prospect
According to win shares Dirk was the best player in the league in 06 and 07, and his best 7 season win shares total is 106.6. Shaq's was also the best player in the league in 2 seasons, 00 and 01. Shaq's best 7 season win shares are 101.8. So Dirk had a better peak value, and a better career value (206.3 to 181.7).

Shaq makes up a bit with a better playoff PER (26.13 to 23.82), but CLEARLY Dirk's career provided more value.

You may be confusing the sim here with real life, since in most leagues here only each player's top season gets used, and Shaq's top season (18.9 WS) was better than Dirk's top season (17.7) but if you are gonna get one season from each player at random you'd be better of taking your chances with Dirk.
10/6/2022 3:43 PM (edited)
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
Show
robusk
Posts: 15375 (0)
Hall of Famer
26 490 20 90 77
All Star
Hey, some interesting stuff here. I mean, aggregate metrics tend to be okay as tentpoles but bad at a fine grain level. However, I think it is pretty cool you put yourself out there and posted this stuff. I posted my top 75 not that long ago and only did it to like 6 people. This is way more brave. I applaud you and maybe should update my list and do the same to model your courage. While I don't generally agree across the board, still cool. Definitely some real surprises in your list, some of which I do agree with.
11/4/2022 11:02 PM
ncmusician_7
Posts: 1848 (0)
Hall of Famer
70 169 12 18
All Star
savoybg, win shares (and rankings based off them) are opinions. Saying that you expected Dirk to be higher than Shaq is silly. Shaq scored more per game, scored more efficiently, was a better rebounder, and a better passer.
11/5/2022 4:08 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3104 (0)
All Star
10 34
Prospect
Posted by ncmusician_7 on 11/5/2022 4:08:00 PM (view original):
savoybg, win shares (and rankings based off them) are opinions. Saying that you expected Dirk to be higher than Shaq is silly. Shaq scored more per game, scored more efficiently, was a better rebounder, and a better passer.
They are not opinions, they come from a mathematical formula. And of course Dirk would be higher than Shaq, as this measures career value, not peak value. Dirk played 315 more games than Shaq.

WS/48
Dirk - .1928
Shaq - .2081

Shaq was better per minute, but Dirk played 9500 more minutes in his career.

And Shaq did not score more efficiently when you consider the foul shots. Shaq averaged 1.03 points per possession. Possessions are (.44 x FTA) + FGA + TO). Dirk averaged 1.06 points per possession.
11/6/2022 10:22 AM (edited)
ncmusician_7
Posts: 1848 (0)
Hall of Famer
70 169 12 18
All Star
A formula that results in a subjective value and/or rankings (such as an appraisal of real estate) is an opinion. You, me, whomever came up with the baseball-ish formula (WAR) you referenced, anyone else, etc can make a formula to place a value on a player.

Name PPG RPG APG TS% Finals MVP
Shaq 23.7 10.9 2.5 58.6% 3
Dirk 20.7 7.5 2.4 57.7% 1
11/6/2022 2:27 PM
copernicus
Posts: 5374 (3)
Hall of Famer
526 23 1 128
Veteran

They are not opinions, they come from a mathematical formula.



RESPECT HIS AUTHORITY!
11/6/2022 3:29 PM
savoybg
Posts: 3104 (0)
All Star
10 34
Prospect
Posted by ncmusician_7 on 11/6/2022 2:27:00 PM (view original):
A formula that results in a subjective value and/or rankings (such as an appraisal of real estate) is an opinion. You, me, whomever came up with the baseball-ish formula (WAR) you referenced, anyone else, etc can make a formula to place a value on a player.

Name PPG RPG APG TS% Finals MVP
Shaq 23.7 10.9 2.5 58.6% 3
Dirk 20.7 7.5 2.4 57.7% 1
Like I said, Shaq is better per minute, but Dirk played almost 10,000 more minutes at a rate that was 92.6% as good as Shaq's career rate. So the question is kind of like, do you want Mickey Mantle for 9910 plate appearances, or Hank Aaron for 13,941 plate appearances.

WAR/162 games
Mantle - 7.4
Aaron - 7.0

CAREER WAR
Aaron - 143.0
Mantle - 110.2

Mantle is better per plate appearance and per game, but Aaron had 3.031 more plate appearances, which is like almost 5 full seasons of close to as good as Mantle. Aaron's level of play is 94.6% as good as Mantle's level of play, but you get almost 5 more full seasons of Aaron.

11/6/2022 10:52 PM
123 Next ▸
Greatest Players At Each Position Topic
△Top△Bottom

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2026 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.